w/ Caitlin Teed, Whiplash
"Business, like life, is about how you make people feel. It's that simple, and it's that hard." –Daniel Meyer
Authenticity & community are buzzwords we here often when discussing brand marketing in 2022, but what does community look like?
Caitlin Teed, a creative marketer who helped make Shopify's community what it is today, discusses her experience with community-building and her career in eCommerce tech.
The Unofficial Shopify Podcast
Kurt Elster: On this show, and in the larger marketing internet in general, a thing we hear a lot about is community. Oh, you gotta build community. It’s just that you gotta foster community. We need community. Community is so important. You know, I’m just all about community. What the heck does that mean, right? What is community in the context of brand building, of brand awareness? And is that the only reason we want to do it, is like this absolutely selfish need to drive brand awareness without burning dollars at the altar of Facebook? Maybe. Maybe that’s a part of it. But I think there’s a lot more to community. I know my career has benefited both from being in and participating in various communities, as well as later developing our own community. We’ve got this audience, and these podcast listeners, and our Facebook group, which is into thousands of members with daily active participation.
And so, I have experienced, and I see the value in it, and I have a handful of brands, clients that we work with, that have been able to foster communities. And it really… Those brands, when we talk to those customers, have utterly just unbelievably loyal customers. I think that is a huge benefit to community. But based on the very few people I’ve worked with who have been able to foster communities like that, I think it’s either a lot harder than it sounds, it’s more than just like, “Yeah, we started a Facebook group. What more do you want from us?” Or just, “I hired a social manager. Good enough.” I don’t know. I need to know more. I need to dig in.
And so, I have someone who has joined me today, Caitlin Teed, who is currently a rather creative marketer, a relationship builder, who specializes in community and partnerships. She is a delight. But she lives, breathes eCommerce tech, because she spent many years growing up and developing those skills at Shopify. Yes, the mothership.
Sound Board:
Kurt Elster: And she now is going to join us and talk about those community efforts. Now, we’ll hear where she’s at and why we should listen to her, but first, I’m your host, Kurt Elster.
Ezra Firestone Sound Board Clip: Tech Nasty!
Kurt Elster: And this is The Unofficial Shopify Podcast. Caitlin, thank you for joining us.
Caitlin Teed: Thank you so much, Kurt. Oh my gosh. I think we could just end it right there. You did a great job. So many questions unanswered. Let’s just throw it out into the ethos and see what happens. But thank you so much for having me.
Kurt Elster: Just leave them wanting more.
Caitlin Teed: Yeah. Right? That’s the whole point of community. People come back. They’re like, “Wait, wait, wait. What’s next? What’s next? I’m hooked. I’m curious. I’m excited. I’m eager.” And I’m so happy to be back here with you and be on this podcast, which has been a dream of mine for so long, so thank you for making dreams come true, Kurt.
Kurt Elster: My pleasure. Yeah. Wow. We’re really hyping each other up here.
Caitlin Teed: I know. I love it.
Kurt Elster: You were at Shopify in the past for many years and we interacted quite a bit during that time. No longer. Where are you now?
Caitlin Teed: I left the mothership to just hop onto another amazing ship, on a bit of a different trajectory, but still on the same eCommerce path. I’m working at Ryder E-commerce by Whiplash now. We do warehousing and fulfillment for all kinds of amazing brands in the eCommerce space. A lot on Shopify, as well. So, I was telling you earlier I’ve kind of pulled the curtain a bit back on the eCommerce world. We talked so much about getting those followers and that marketing dollars, but my curiosity led me to the place where things actually happen, and things ship, and we warehouse, and fulfill, and this very age-old industry that’s existed forever in commerce, and now how it’s married to eCommerce. So, kind of marrying my curiosity with this amazing tech and this world that’s ever growing and changing.
Kurt Elster: And you say it’s Whiplash by Ryder. Ryder acquired Whiplash.
Caitlin Teed: Yes.
Kurt Elster: Whiplash is like the 3PL.
Caitlin Teed: Exactly.
Kurt Elster: Ryder… Is it like the rental trucks?
Caitlin Teed: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So, they were getting into the eCommerce space, as well, and they saw what Whiplash was doing, and then they were like, “You know what? Let’s just join forces here.” So, that is how that occurred. Yeah. Late last year.
Kurt Elster: This new role at Whiplash, many years at Shopify, where does community fit in all that? Why am I listening to you, of all people, about community? You’re like riding around in rental trucks. What’s going on here?
Caitlin Teed: I’m so glad you asked, Kurt. Let’s go back to Shopify and go back to tech and start there and say that when I was at Shopify, and the first time I actually met you, I was a partner manager. And there’s something about partnerships as being such a young craft in the same way that community is, and I think they feed off each other a lot, so when I was a partner manager I was managing relationships one-on-one a lot of the time, working directly with folks like yourself and others in the space that were working with Shopify customers and helping them, and there was this ecosystem, essentially. And we really realized there was an opportunity to leverage that ecosystem and have folks like yourself or others teach others to do the amazing work that you do, and not just be Shopify as that point of contact that everyone relies on, but like there is this whole external group of folks here that are interested in learning from each other and being able to help each other grow, and learn, and evolve.
So, there’s this interesting intersection of community and partnerships, and I did that a lot of my time at Shopify, and that led me to events, that led me to doing a lot of virtual opportunities and connecting folks. Kind of like matchmaking, like, “Hey, I see that we’re having similar issues here. We’re trying to build a subcommunity here of theme developers. What is it that you’re looking for?” And so on and so forth. And it kind of intersects into the partnerships world because my job right now is to connect these amazing tech partners with our warehousing systems, but also helping them learn from each other in a lot of ways too and seeing similarities in the spaces they’re trying to get into.
Kurt Elster: It’s interesting to hear you talk about it in the past tense as someone who is on the other side of what I experienced, because when people ask me… Some variation, some flavor of the question, “Why Shopify? Why are you here? Why are you doing this?” And my answer, the number one reason was always it’s the ecosystem. And ecosystem, really, I meant like, all right, partner enablement, the accuracy of documentation, so like the resources and supporting tools, and then the community itself, and then all the efforts, the events, everything that went into creating that community, which was those partnerships.
And so, all right, I see the larger piece here and I see how community can balloon into this huge thing. Can we define community in the context of an eCommerce brand? Because we don’t all have multibillion dollar Shopify resources here.
Caitlin Teed: No, not today. But I hope everyone that’s listening does eventually. This is something that comes up so often and I think it even happened at Shopify. Internally, what happened is a lot of different folks were adopting the title, community, but they were doing a variety of different things at the company that I found never really aligned to anything. So, I feel like there’s always been this misalignment, whether you are just trying to sell candles, or some product, to you’re trying to work for a mega company and be like, “I want people to feel connected to our company. I want our customers to be obsessed with us and never leave us.” There’s just this symbolism of loyal… You said it earlier, Kurt, like loyalty.
And I think there’s something there around community not being your audience. It’s not a one-to-one. It’s like the one to many, but also the many to the many, and that’s where community truly comes in and it’s less of this like… You know, we would say like, “Oh, the blog. Oh, our community.” And I was like, “No, that’s your audience.” A community would be like, “Okay, the blog goes out but then we have a roundtable discussion with the authors and the contributors, and we get people to come together and speak and learn from each other about this and be able to connect and foster something bigger than what is put out there.”
So, I don’t really have an answer, a defined definition of community, because I do think it’s-
Kurt Elster: I think you did find it, though.
Caitlin Teed: I did.
Kurt Elster: The difference I’m hearing is if I’ve got… All right, if it’s one-to-one it’s not necessarily community. If it’s one to many, maybe it’s community. Not necessarily. But it’s in… As soon as the audience themselves can interact with each other independent of you, but in a way that you enabled potentially, that’s community. Now it starts to get this grassroots feel. And maybe that’s a little scary because it could potentially be out, starting to be outside of your control, and I think that’s a good thing.
Caitlin Teed: It is.
Kurt Elster: It’s like enable it and let it flourish.
Caitlin Teed: Oh, Kurt, you hit the nail on the head there, and I think there was times even at Shopify, people were like, “Oh, no. Our partners are talking in these closed communities. We want access to them.” I was like, “No, this is good. This is what we want.” And knowing that there were always champions in those communities and there were also people who I know were very vocal about the difficulties and the struggles they were having, but they were able to lean on each other in that space and never feel like it was always… It’s like that domino effect where they could lean on each other rather than just constantly pushing on Shopify. Or if they did push back on a company or a brand because they were having a poor experience, it came from a place of consolidated feedback and consolidated experience, where it’s not just a one-off.
I would always be disappointed when someone would say like, “Oh, I just had a great conversation with a customer. We have to change everything. Stop the presses. This one person knows everything.” I was like, “But who are they in the community? Is this someone who has spoken to other consumers, or buyers, or people in that space? Do we trust them enough to be able to provide that feedback?” That’s why someone like yourself is so… I’m just gonna say it, like very well respected in that space, because you have your communities of customers, and of partners, and of people that you know what you’re doing and you’ve elevated yourself as an expert, and it’s so important for brands to acknowledge and identify who those people are and celebrate them.
Kurt Elster: I couldn’t have said it better myself. I will absolutely… Yes. Let me dust my shoulders off there.
Caitlin Teed: Right, just brush off my shoulder. Okay. Cool, cool, cool.
Kurt Elster: When you’re trying to develop this community, partnerships are an important part of it, but not the whole thing. That’s like a tactic within the larger community strategy. Who am I partnering with? What am I looking for? How is that different?
Caitlin Teed: It’s a good question. And I mean, when I think about the types of partners and companies and people and consumers, whoever, that we want to align with, it goes beyond just fitting your ideal customer profile. It goes into actually value-based systems. So, if you look at, and I’m just kind of spitballing here, but hopefully not actually spitting into my beautiful new microphone but thinking about some of the most successful companies have been able to identify what their mission and their manifesto is, and one brand I was gonna bring up that does this really well is like Liquid Death. They have really their manifesto written on their website. They have membership-based things and they’re building this community around their manifesto.
And the thing is that they believe it as much as their consumers and as people who want to sell and resell them, those partners in their space, whoever they are aligning their business with. If it doesn’t reach back to that manifesto and the belief system that they hold behind their brand, and behind the experience they’re trying to build, beyond just a product, then that’s where things get really… That flywheel really starts kicking off, because people will feel so much more connected to you and the wheels will keep spinning, and they’ll keep coming back to you. When I hear someone doesn’t know what Liquid Death is, I become the biggest brand advocate in the world for them. Even though I’ve only experienced them through my first time in Vegas. There was a big… I was like, “What is this? This looks cool. You’ve never heard of Liquid Death? Oh my God. It's the best thing ever. They’re just redefining the way that water is drank.”
I was like, “Who? This is like the best thing since sliced bread. Where was this?” So, I think my long-winded way of answering your question is when you’re trying to find people to partner with, and I think the word partner is a beautiful way of representing not just other businesses that you’re aligning yourself with, but other big advocates in your space. People that believe in what you’re trying to achieve and can help you get there.
Kurt Elster: So, one of the magic ingredients here is really being… Defining your story. Telling your story. And whether that’s like we’ve got a narrative about the brand, or what we’re looking for, or there’s a vision, no matter what you… There’s a story that you need to own as part of the brand. And some customers are gonna buy your product because, all right, I’m gonna buy Liquid Death because I like seltzer water and death metal branding. I think it’s cool, right? There’s novelty for that. Or maybe I’m really into the story there and for me I’m gonna… I’ll buy Liquid Death. I’m gonna like it.
But the person who buys into the story on top of the product, they’re the ones who are gonna be involved with the community, and then having the community, being a part of it, gives them a sense of belonging, now they’re brand evangelists. Oh my gosh.
Caitlin Teed: Yeah. Their biggest fans will be the people who, yeah, believe… Okay, so I have this book in front of me that I forgot I had, and it’s like… Hear me out, but it’s called The Culting of Brands. And I originally bought it when I started working at Shopify because I was so curious about how there were people who were so ingrained in the system and how just… Not in the system, but even just such a… Like Shopify changed their life in a lot of ways, or whether it be how they worked with it, or how they were a customer, and I think there is, like you said, there’s always this age-old storytelling aspect of it, and people will follow the stories that they align with the most, or that they see the most hope and belief in, and you can’t buy that. You can’t buy belief. People need to feel it or experience it as a part of that story, like you said, and you build fans, and you build followings, but are your followers actually gonna go to bat for you and are they gonna be the ones that are there if you fall, and if maybe you aren’t delivering on what you promised? Are they gonna be the ones that give you that feedback and help you be better as a brand?
Kurt Elster: If someone’s listening to this and going, “This is total nonsense. These two need to come off it.” Think about this. They’re like, “How much value could there really be in 200 words of story on an about page or whatever?” Consider this. The cornerstone of the success of the Disney empire is that they own our stories. Tens of millions of people will go to just the Orlando park this year and spend untold sums of money. Disney+ is the number one streaming platform at the moment. What are all of these things… What do they have in common? What is the thing they’re selling us? It’s the stories. It’s the stories that people connect to. Why do you pay a billion dollars for Star Wars? Because you’re just like, “Wow, there is just so many stories to plumb here,” and these are stories that now millennials grew up with as kids. It’s culture.
And so, if you can tell a story that you believe in, I think that authenticity… There’s the other buzzword in addition to community, is authenticity. Oh, authenticity. It’s not authentic. Oh, I blame social media for us really desperately wanting something authentic, which only makes it worse. And so, that need to connect with something with that story is how you… And community is where you go, “Oh, there are other people like me.”
Caitlin Teed: Yes. Yeah. I couldn’t… Yeah. Couldn’t have said it better myself, Kurt. I think, I mean Disney is one of the brands that I did write down as being-
Kurt Elster: Oh, really?
Caitlin Teed: Yeah. It’s like on my list of like we got Disney. Think about even Starbucks, like the cult following of Starbucks, and how you have this image of the Starbucks girl who has the complicated order. And I know it’s very trivial and that’s very one thing, but there is something there that like I can’t start my day without my Starbies. There’s something… There’s a storyline there.
Kurt Elster: If I ever say Starbies non-ironically, it’s over for me.
Caitlin Teed: Get real. I think one of the other coolest communities I’ve ever seen, think about Fitbit and Peloton. Think about these huge brands in the fitness space. Gymsharks, like that are just owning the story and owning the narrative of like fitness can be better and there are people going through similar struggles and similar challenges, but also want to have a shared similar… Like the Fitbitisms, and the Pelotons, there’s that challenger, like I’m gonna level up. I’m gonna keep leveling up my game. And I like seeing other people that I can… kind of that comparison, as well, like, “Oh, no. I’m the best Peloton in my group,” or something. There’s something there about not only just the story but the story arc, and when things start getting really exciting, and you can come to that… the peaks and pits of what makes a story worth telling.
Kurt Elster: So, the cornerstone, it starts with storytelling, and then it turns to enablement? Like, “Hey, this is the community. We’re gonna give you tools. We’re gonna highlight people. We’re going to do things to empower this community to happen.” But it feels like it’s something you can’t force to occur.
Caitlin Teed: Yeah.
Kurt Elster: There is no guarantee that you can make it happen. You can give people all the tools and invite them in but it’s still up to them.
Caitlin Teed: 100%. And I think that’s where your even comment about authenticity earlier, people won’t act on things necessarily unless they feel good about it, and they feel that… You know, because I’ve seen failures of this, as well, too. If it’s like we’re thinking about… Think about like membership-based services, or even like loyalty programs. They don’t work for everyone. And there’s certain people who really jive off of that. And the cost of Fitbits, they have one of the most active, thriving online communities I’ve ever seen. When you look at their forums it's amazing. People strive to have forums as active and as helpful and community focused as the Fitbit community, but that doesn’t jive for me, because I don’t care for Fitbits. I don’t care for having a little arm wristband telling me-
Kurt Elster: You got that Apple Watch, don’t you?
Caitlin Teed: I don’t even have an Apple Watch, Kurt. Can you believe that?
Kurt Elster: You know, neither do I.
Caitlin Teed: Yeah. See? We’re just like… See?
Kurt Elster: I like my Casios. I just like my cheap Casios. They’re the best.
Caitlin Teed: I have a MVMT watch from when they were like way back in the day, so I hold on to that dearly.
Kurt Elster: Oh, MVMT.
Caitlin Teed: Good old MVMT. Another cult brand following. Finally, I remember… And this is another thing, too, is like accessibility to the people who are behind the stories. Meeting the founder of MVMT Watches, that was such a cool experience for me. And getting to see and hear how they built their success, and they won Build a Business, Shopify’s first ever competition for store owners to level up their game and make the most sales, and I loved that story.
Kurt Elster: They won the first Build a Business?
Caitlin Teed: They won the first Build a Business. Yeah.
Kurt Elster: And then went on to… I don’t know it off the top of my head, but that one was extraordinarily successful.
Caitlin Teed: Yeah. You know, and they won the opportunity to get some one-on-one time with like Tim Ferriss, and Harley, and all these folks, and who knows if that… And that’s the thing, is you can’t… That’s-
Kurt Elster: Were they on Necker Island?
Caitlin Teed: They were on… Yes, they were. Yes.
Kurt Elster: Richard Branson’s private island. Necker Island.
Caitlin Teed: Yes. Yep. He was there too. I almost forgot.
Kurt Elster: Yeah.
Caitlin Teed: How can you forget Richard Branson? My apologies. My apologies, Richard, if you’re listening.
Kurt Elster: Sorry, Sir Branson.
Caitlin Teed: Yeah, and Kurt, I’ll never even forget the first time you told me, because I remember asking how did you first hear about Shopify, and this is the pain and the pleasure of community, is that trying to pinpoint it to like a direct ROI is almost impossible. But I remember you telling me, we were at a conference together, and you were like, “I think I saw them at some booth at some other developer or design conference I was at, and I was like oh, this seems cool. Maybe I’ll start dabbling in this.” But that was like the spark, right? And that… Maybe that story’s wrong, but-
Kurt Elster: Yeah. I’d started seeing people talk about it and I started seeing it around, and then I bought like a web development book and it definitely… I thought, “Well, this was really easy to buy.” And the notification, there was something where I saw it was like powered by Shopify. And then I had a friend who owned a bike shop locally and he goes, “I want a new website. I hate our website.” I said, “Well, okay. What, just tell me your number one thing that you want out of this.” He goes, “It just has to be easy.” And I go, “I think there’s this thing called Shopify and that’s their whole thing is that it’s easy and it’s an online store. We should try that.” And then not knowing what we didn’t know, just went and built a custom… I went and just designed a custom theme, like really having no business doing that, and then developed it, and then unbelievably not only were we successful, that site is still up.
Caitlin Teed: Stop.
Kurt Elster: It’s still there.
Caitlin Teed: Wow.
Kurt Elster: Yeah. That’s pretty wild. Every so often I look at it and I’m like, “Look at that.” And it’s got like photos on it that I took. It’s AmlingsCycle.com. I’ll put it in the show notes.
Caitlin Teed: Yeah, you better. Now I have to buy a new bike.
Kurt Elster: Funny.
Caitlin Teed: That’s so… See, and that’s where that ROI and that… How do you track that? But you feel it.
Kurt Elster: You can’t.
Caitlin Teed: You feel it.
Kurt Elster: But that was community is what did that.
Caitlin Teed: Exactly. Exactly.
Kurt Elster: Because I just kept seeing, like I was active on Twitter at the time, and not that I’m not now, but I was, and I would see it mentioned, and it eventually… It makes it top of mind when that scenario lines up, the stars align, and someone goes, “What should I do? Should I use… What should I use for eCommerce?” I’m like, “Use this thing.” But you’re right, it is like basically… It would be incredibly difficult to measure in a meaningful way.
You talk to people; you could do surveys. Hm.
Caitlin Teed: Yeah. And that’s why I think people shy away from it a lot, or they think, “Oh, community is the number of Twitter followers we have.” It’s like that’s not your community.
Kurt Elster: All right, so social media, just so we’re clear, social media audience, not in itself community.
Caitlin Teed: No. Not from my perspective, but I’d love to see someone challenging me on the comments on that, but I am not… No. The way that… Now, who you have, there’s companies who have brand banter, and people who can symbolize and represent in the space, but there needs to be dialog. It’s not that one to many, and it needs to be engaging, and it needs to be… And your followers aren’t your people in your community. They’re not your brand advocates. They’re not necessarily people that even know who you are. Could be a robot for all we know. But the community that you’re building should really be fueled and fulfilled by people who believe in your manifesto, who are actively engaging in activities that you put out there, membership programs, loyalty programs, any kind of multi-effect of things. If they don’t feel comfortable in person, are they attending, are they engaging with you in other ways? Are they providing you feedback? Are they filling out customer forms? Are they giving you reviews? Are they referring new business to you somehow, some way?
Kurt Elster: So, what are the… I’ve got a good sense of what community is and isn’t here. I definitely understand the advantage and it seems like the disadvantage is like if you’re really into moderation and control, and you’re really successful at this, those things are not compatible. But that’s a good problem to have if it’s like, “Oh, my community’s so thriving it’s out of my control.” Wonderful. You nailed it. It’s now self-sustaining.
Caitlin Teed: Yeah. Reddit.
Kurt Elster: Yeah, like Reddit. But within, like what are the… What are my activities here? What are the community fostering things? Am I building a forum? Is it a Facebook group? A subreddit? What is it?
Caitlin Teed: Could be anything. And that’s the thing is like it’s not gonna be a one and done thing and it’s not… And like you even said, it’s about resource, ensuring there’s proper resources assigned to it. I think community at the heart of it can be as simple as… I can be like a roundtable activation. It can be like bringing some of your top customers into a room together, like treating them, delighting them. It’s a surprise and delight moment. It can be an event. I can be a luncheon. It can be… It needs to be an opportunity for them to engage with each other and for you to learn from that experience if you can. And if you can’t, then also acknowledging that it’s great that those folks are getting together.
We held a dinner recently for a bunch of brands in New York. And the brands were obviously way more excited to see each other than they were us, but we helped facilitate it and we were very excited that that brand felt good about being invited because they knew so-and-so was going and they could ask them about how they’re preparing for BFCM and what they’re doing with these challenges they’re experiencing. And that’s the authenticity there that you’re fostering, so it’s about these opportunities to create and foster authenticity and being okay with not necessarily controlling it. So, it is things like events, luncheons, surprise and delight with special gifts. Membership programs are getting really hot right now. Are there ways that you can make people feel extra special but also find ways they can connect to each other? So, membership-only programming. Mastermind groups.
Gosh, there’s probably a million more things that I’m not even thinking about that I know brands out there are doing. A trip to Disney and learning how to tell a story. I don’t… There’s a lot there, but there’s things that we all know we feel.
Kurt Elster: It sounds like you’re a big fan of in-person events.
Caitlin Teed: I am.
Kurt Elster: You mentioned the dinners. I noticed you’ll see, being in this community on Twitter, it’ll be like, “Oh, we had a dinner in X city,” and it’ll be like a major city, they’ll have hosted like 10 to 20 people, which is cheap, but then those people all connected, those people have positive feelings about you. You’re not giving them a pitch. They’re not gonna remember what you said. But they are gonna remember how you made them feel.
Caitlin Teed: Yes.
Kurt Elster: And you’ve made them feel like part of a community.
Caitlin Teed: Yes.
Kurt Elster: Aha. And then those people, you do it at a nice place, and it feels exclusive, it’s super cool, you’re proud of it. Now you’re gonna share. You take that group photo. You get the waiter to take a group photo. It’s gonna be on social media. And that’s how I see it, like I’ll be on Twitter and it’s like, “Oh, a bunch of these heavy hitters went out to dinner. How cool.” But it’s really it was fostered by one brand.
Caitlin Teed: Kurt, you hit the nail on the head there and it’s my absolutely favorite quote, and it’s not even directly about community, but from Danny Meyer, who started Shake Shack, and it said, “Business, just like life, is all about how you make people feel. It’s that simple and it’s that hard.” And it is one of my favorite quotes, and I remember reading it in his book called Setting the Table, which is a lot about hospitality, and I think there’s something in there about that hospitality, understanding that you are helping foster an experience, or a feeling, or a vibe, but you don’t necessarily own the narrative. If you’re hosting someone at a party or a house, you’re not like in the hotel room with them. You’re dropping off the bags and being like, “Enjoy yourself,” but you’re making sure that there are touch points there, like what’s the mint on the pillow that’s gonna make them remember that experience?
I remember someone telling me once that they were at this amazing hotel, and I’m just using this as some… the hotel as the example of like a collection of getting people together, or an experience, or something you go out to do, but they had left their hotel room to go for a swim or something and someone had noticed and made sure that they had a towel right next to them so that when they got out, they weren’t gonna be wet and stinky. And those are the kind of things that as a brand, no matter what you’re selling, or what you’re doing, or as a business, thinking about what that mint on the pillow, what that extra special touch experience is that’s gonna make them walk away with a feeling, and it is really… You’re gonna get the most out of that by helping them connect with others that are feeling and experiencing similar things too. And help feel part of a shared experience.
Like you said, that photo that you’re like, “Oh, I have FOMO now, and look at all those great people all together. They probably had the most amazing, life-changing conversations and I can’t wait to be invited to the next one.”
Kurt Elster: And it’s not like this is some inaccessible thing that brands can’t do.
Caitlin Teed: No.
Kurt Elster: You’ve gone to a restaurant before; you’ve hosted a dinner. Yeah, doing it for the first time, it’s hard to wrap your head around like, “I’m gonna buy a bunch of people dinner and that’s a marketing expense.” But it is in this case. And then that is going to have short-term and long-term benefits to your business. And then if I just keep doing that regularly, like once a quarter, once a month if I’m lucky, absolutely you’ll see effects from it as your network grows, as word of mouth spreads. Suddenly, this seems very accessible. I like this idea of the recurring community dinner for the real VIP customers that are local. That’s very cool.
Caitlin Teed: Oh yeah, and Kurt, you know what’s the best part, too, is like think about… So, like when I was at Shopify we ran the amazing meetup series, right? And that was all about enabling the biggest brand advocates, our partners in certain major cities, to be able to have them host and foster community locally. So, that’s where you get that more authentic touch points, and helping… It’s helping those partners, agencies, tech owners feel closer to your brand, and feeling like an authority in that space, giving them the tools they need to actually say, “Oh, okay, Shopify has dubbed me as this person in this community who I am the go-to.”
Kurt, you’re probably like the top go-to person in the virtual space, in the podcast space for Shopify, as well, right? That’s a virtual space that you’ve built and owned in the community, and it’s really cool that you can be that authority there, too.
Kurt Elster: And when someone else acknowledges it, and they’re holding up the mirror and going, “That thing you were trying to do, we noticed, and you did it.”
Caitlin Teed: Yeah.
Kurt Elster: And that’s incredibly powerful because now that becomes part of your… You’re like, “Oh, it’s validation.” It’s confirmation. But now it’s part of your identity, right? And that’s what you want customers to take away is like, “Hey, we see it. We appreciate it. Keep going. By all means.”
Caitlin Teed: You said it perfectly there. Identity, it’s about belonging. And I think that’s where community really… That’s when you’ve really hit the nail on the head there and felt like you’re a part of whatever that brand or that experience is trying to invoke. If you belong, like you’re not just watching that story unfold but you’re a main character in the story, that’s when you have someone who’s going to be a lifelong advocate and a big fan of your brand and be a part of that for the long run.
Kurt Elster: All right, so we start with the dinner, which is easy. Then we do the meetup events, which I have hosted meetup events.
Caitlin Teed: You have.
Kurt Elster: That’s harder.
Caitlin Teed: It’s hard.
Kurt Elster: It’s definitely harder.
Caitlin Teed: People say it’s so easy. They’re just like, “Oh, let’s just do an event.” And I’m like, “Cute. Good for you.”
Kurt Elster: Yeah. If you can just do that, by all means.
Caitlin Teed: Just do that.
Kurt Elster: It’s not impossible. It’s just until you’ve done it a few times you’re like, “Oh. There was a lot involved there.”
Caitlin Teed: Oh. Yeah. It’s a lot. But find the people that… Or go to the… Think about the last time you went to an event that really made you feel special or feel… There’s so many out there. Or try attending something like a CreativeMornings, or local events in your area that are open to either eCommerce, or brands. Take notes. What did you like and what didn’t you like about that experience? And take it. It doesn’t have to be like 150-person meetup. It could be your five top customers or consumers in the area and just get them together. And you know, share an experience, and learn what they’re most excited about from you, and also they’re gonna be grateful for the opportunity to connect with others.
Kurt Elster: And so, what are the… Do we have any don’ts? It’s like this, if you want a surefire do this wrong, here’s what to do.
Caitlin Teed: Oh, gosh. Every community is different. But I will say don’t try to exploit the community. Don’t try to… I think community can be very sensitive, as well, to big changes in your brand, or in your manifesto, or in the way that you interact with them. If you’re doing pricing hikes or something, making sure that folks are aware of the changes ahead of time. There’s a big communication component of this, too, and making sure that your biggest consumers are like, “Hey, we’re changing our pricing soon. We’re sorry. Here’s the story.”
Honey Pot did this really well recently, a brand based in Atlanta for women’s health, and they sent me an email saying, “Hey, we’re so sorry. A variety of things have happened. We had to change our prices.” And this is, again, wasn’t necessarily like community. It was an email. But I felt a part of their story because they were communicating to me about something authentically on why they had to make this big change. So, doing things, and I’ve seen it done wrong in a lot of ways where… Changing like a program or a model without doing it authentically and it coming off for the wrong reasons, or narrating a story that doesn’t align with the end goal and you just killed off the main character? No. That’s not how you do it. I’m liking this story analogy.
But that’s… Yeah, I would kind of say there. That’s a big no-no is not trying to change too quickly, not trying to exploit, not trying to overcharge or make things feel too elitist in a lot of ways. Making it accessible as much as possible.
Kurt Elster: Yeah. That’s a tough part to balance, of like once it starts to get traction, now you need to make it accessible, but also just the reality of it is like you have to keep out bad actors like spammers. You have people who are just gonna show up to sell. And that’s online and offline. And so, that’s a thing you have to worry about. And then you have to worry about everyone in the community needs to feel safe for it to work. You don’t want… Bullying and gatekeeping is a very easy thing to have happen in a community. It’s like, “Well, you’re not really a fan because you don’t know X, Y, and Z mundane detail,” kind of thing. And so, that becomes part of moderation and a concern. And I think it’s like you have to go in knowing that there will be… You’ll have to make some difficult decisions on occasion. Bring down the ban hammer.
Caitlin Teed: Oh, I’ve had to do that once or twice to people you know, actually, Kurt.
Kurt Elster: Oh, no!
Caitlin Teed: I know. I’m sorry. But that’s a tough one. And that’s where you have to make sure that your intentions are set on what and why you’re either gathering in this space virtually or in person and making sure that levels up to whatever your manifesto or whatever your brand purpose is. And that has to all kind of align and feel good there, and yeah, there’s always gonna be villains in the story. There’s always gonna be bad guys. Not even necessarily bad guys. I think there’s two folds here. It’s like people who don’t understand the purpose of the community and use it as a venting space or as a space that is not collaborative and not creative. I’m here, I think communities are a great space for constructive criticism and feedback about whatever it is you’re selling or doing, but it’s not a dumping ground. It’s meant to be collaborative.
And as soon as it becomes a space where people, to your point, are just cold pitching, or just not making sense, or just not aligned at all to the brand, or to what you’re trying to accomplish together, then it’s the boot. And that’s good because that protects your other people, and it makes it highly aligned to what you’re trying to accomplish.
Kurt Elster: Yeah. You want to maintain quality over quantity.
Caitlin Teed: 1,000%.
Kurt Elster: It really does not have to… I think there’s this idea that like, well, if I can’t build a community with 30,000 people in it, it needs to be the size of a small city or I just shouldn’t bother at all, and that isn’t the case. If you had 100 true fans in a group, you will get to 1,000 true fans. And if you have 1,000 true fans, that’s all you need. That’s it. From there, you can sustain quite a lot just off that loyalty and evangelism.
Caitlin Teed: Yeah. True fans. They’re gonna refer you to all of their other friends that are… I mean, another brand I wrote down is Glossier, and I love when I’m doing my makeup with a girlfriend or something and I see she has Glossier products, because I just… I know that story and it’s one of the first times I ever felt connected to makeup and a brand, because they provided simple, but really high quality products, and their experience in person, it takes me back every time. They’re a very smart brand for that and I think they’re one of a few that also have a cool story where they started as a content generator. Started as like a blog.
Think about all the celebrities that are now getting into the CPG and D2C game right now. They have this story, and they have this following already, actually. But then you’re able to make real, like you’re able to leverage that and turn it into loyal, loyal, loyal consumers.
Kurt Elster: Now, the one I’m surprised by, does Apple have a community and engage in community building?
Caitlin Teed: I mean, okay, so as someone who used to work at Apple, and I don’t necessarily know their practices nowadays, but I was always very impressed with the way that Apple approached the retail game. So, at the front of the store is the red zone, so that’s the sales and product buying experience portion of the store. Apple’s very intentional about the way they build and do everything. And then the back of the store was the family room, and the family room was meant if you had a broken product, or you had a poor experience, like your iPhone button stopped working, you go to the family room because it was all about care at that point. The family room is where the real community building happened and that opportunity to help you feel connected to the brand and turn a bad experience into a better one.
There was programming that I helped run back there. We did iPad 101 where people were able to learn and connect from each other. They used to do a lot of really cool programming and I think there’s definitely a cult following for Apple. We can’t deny that. I know people have Apple tattoos and there’s like… There’s fans. But then there’s… I think Apple tried and was one of the first to really build that retail experience where everything was out of the box, and you could tangibly touch it, and you could have authentic conversations, and you could show someone an iPhone and say, “Hey, Siri, what movies are playing nearby today?” And blow someone’s mind because they were like, “I never knew that was a feature.”
Kurt Elster: I was gonna say this is like 2012. Their head would explode.
Caitlin Teed: Yeah. Yeah. And those kinds of surprises, so that goes back to that surprise and delight, which entices people and gets them excited about what you have. And then there’s that what keeps them going back is knowing that there is a community, or a family room, or some way that they can feel connected and become a continued part of that story. Feel heard and listened to when they’re experiencing problems. But also come back and say, “Hey, I want to learn more. I’m hooked. I got my iPad now. All my grandkids are on it. How do I edit these photos? How do I crop out this guy? How do I do this?”
So, there’s excitement, and then that leads into I think continued conversation and a bit of that community aspect.
Kurt Elster: So, if I’m a brand owner, I’m a Shopify store owner, and I want to start fostering community this month, what’s my next step? What do I do? I’m gonna go on Amazon, I buy Culting of Brands. I’m gonna read this. What else?
Caitlin Teed: Okay. Well, first of all, you have to know… Okay, take an inflection point here. Start internally. Do you believe in what you’re selling? Think about what you’re selling, why you started. Hone in on that storytelling experience. Do your employees and the people that you have employed, and if you are a one-person shop, more power to you. Make sure that you believe and really resonate with the story you’re telling, and that you feel strongly about it. I remember when, like example, Shopify’s manifesto came out. Make commerce better for everyone. That was the north star everyone could point to. Think about what your north star is.
And once you have that really honed in, think about who in your customer base, and you could pull this data, or you could think about it lethargically, or like understand through social or whatnot, whatever following size you have, a few of your customers in front of you, who do you think resonates most with that? And maybe who even doesn’t resonate most with that. Feel what is the opportunity you have to connect with them and help them connect with each other. Is it a surprise and delight moment? Can you send them maybe a gift card or a special discount code? But then can you also say, “Hey, we’re gonna be meeting at this spot,” find a location where they congregate in. Go to them. If you’re selling candles, is the local bookstore doing a reading club? That seems like that could be somewhere where your audience is.
Go ask them what they’re buying for Thanksgiving for friends this year. I’m rambling here a bit, but it starts internally, and then I think what you need to do is think about the best way to share that story externally. It doesn’t mean going to buy like $10,000 dinner for people. It means just finding opportunities to find people where they are. Find your customers where they are.
Kurt Elster: You’re not taking them to Tim Hortons?
Caitlin Teed: You can go to-
Kurt Elster: Oh, you meet them at Tim Hortons.
Caitlin Teed: Meet them. I mean, I love Timmys. We talked about Starbies earlier today. It doesn’t even have to be Starbies. Go to the Tim Hortons. Or grab a coffee and go chat with someone that is… Maybe the person who first bought from you. Why didn’t they buy again? Ask questions. Feel engaged. Feel excited. And know that what you’re delivering for them is unique and special and that they want to be a part of that story and help them connect with you and also connect with others in the same way.
Kurt Elster: I love that advice because a recurring theme on this show in the last several episodes has been, “Hey, please just talk to your customers. Just find one and talk to them.” On Zoom, on the phone, at Starbucks. Sorry, Starbies. The amount of insight and empathy for the customer and the audience that you’ll create doing that is hugely valuable. That really will make or break you.
Okay. I’m feeling warm and fuzzy and inspired. Where can I learn more about you, my friend?
Caitlin Teed: Well, I’m on the Twitters and on LinkedIn. Just Caitlin Teed I think is on my handles. I post a lot on Instagram. I also have my website, CaitlinTeed.com, where I post really random things, kind of like a… You know, whatever hat I decide to wear today, but one thing that I always hold true and that is really important to me is community building, and making people feel authentic and connected to every little experience they have. So, that’s where you can find me.
Kurt Elster: Wonderful. I will link to all of that in the show notes. Tap or swipe up on the show art to get to it. This is fabulous.
Caitlin Teed: Thank you, Kurt.
Kurt Elster: Caitlin Teed, thank you so much.
Caitlin Teed: Thank you so much, Kurt. I really appreciate you. This was really fun.