w/ Lucy Jeffrey, founder of Bare Kind & Candid Founders
Also available on YouTube: youtu.be/l8ANgFlZK0Y
It started with a sock. A turtle sock. That led to a Shopify store, a wholesale boom, and—accidentally—an agency. In this episode, Lucy Jeffrey shares how she turned Bare Kind from a seasonal side hustle into one of Faire’s fastest-growing brands. She walks us through surviving seasonality, scaling through B2B, ditching paid ads, and launching a service business that helps other brands win on Faire. A story about survival, strategy, and what happens when your Q4 makes or breaks you.
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Kurt Elster
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Lucy Jeffrey
Uh currently in London. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It sounds quite wild hearing all of that playback. It's a bit of a topsy-turvy journey for sure.
Kurt Elster
So okay, what t tell me where we started in this journey.
Lucy Jeffrey
Yeah, so yeah, so I was in banking. So I'd graduated university, joined a grad scheme at HSBC. and was just in a standard kind of corporate job that was fine. Uh it was a steady salary, uh, but it wasn't really lighting any fires underneath me. So I'd actually started bear kind my e-commerce business as a bit of a side hustle, n never really thinking it would go anywhere. But at the time um of me starting it, there was a big wave of people trying to reduce single-use plastic and I was like leaning into that. So my very first product was actually reusable stainless steel straws. Um, I'd seen a friend whip one out of her bag in a bar and just thought, oh, that's weird, what are you doing? You've got a metal straw in your bag. And then they they became a bit of a trend after that and I'd like jumped on that trend right at the start, uh began with drop shipping, kind of all different beautiful colours of straws and moved into a few other products that I I dabbled with, but nothing really took off. uh things like reusable tote bags and t-shirts made out of plastic bottles and things. And the socks came later. um because there was a video going around the internet of a sea turtle with a straw stuck up his nose. Uh quite traumatic. But because of that, turtles became a bit of a mascot 'cause we were all about just reducing the amount of plastic going into the ocean, harming these animals. and I wanted to give back to the Turtles in another way. So I formed a partnership with the Turtle Foundation. And the idea was being that I'd do a profit donation model back to the charity, back to the Turtles But the straws, there was still quite a tenerous link. So I actually thought, right, I'll bring out a product with turtles on it. Started with socks. purely because I was like this is you know a fun funky product that I can make colourful with cute little animals on it. Uh I don't have any kind of background in fashion so I wasn't going to go too heavy down any other kind of clothing route Um and it was just turtles to start with. So that was my original sock that my customers loved and then started demanding other animals. Um and we've kind of grown since then. So that was nearly seven years ago now. Uh we've got nearly a hundred different designs now.
Kurt Elster
These are bamboo socks and the site is Bearkind B-A-R-E bearkind dot com and that's on Shopify.
Lucy Jeffrey
Absolutely. Yeah, we're on Shopify. Have been since the beginning. Um, so it started off uh drop shipping straws, then it moved into yeah, I held the kind of products myself, and now we've got, yeah, numerous different manufacturers we ship out of the UK. Um and turtles are still a strong seller. They were my original sock, but we still have them. They're still a very good seller for us.
Kurt Elster
So as you you went from you know dropshipping straws then into selling these socks, what's the moment where you realize, hey, this this could be a full-time gig?
Lucy Jeffrey
Yeah, so so 2018 was when I started the company. It wasn't until a couple of years later So smack bang in the middle of COVID, uh, we're all working from home. And I had a bunch of stock that I wasn't really sure what to do with. So I had about five designs at that point. Meh between five and ten designs and I actually wasn't sure where to take the company at that point. You know, the world had just kind of blown up in our faces and it you know there was people were having existential crises and I was like, do I want to stay at work? Do I want to work for a charity? I have no idea. And so I thought, right, I'll just take out um a small loan. chuck it into Facebook ads, uh just see where see if I can clear through the stock and then make a decision. I could have gone either way, closed down the business or not. However, it just took off. Like I sold out of my all of my stock within like a month. So it's the most I'd ever sold. Um and to to give context, it's not much. I honestly think it was like five thousand pounds like in a single month, which doesn't sound like much, but honestly that shows how tiny the business was at that point. And I just thought, okay, well, I do actually think I'm onto something here that I've managed to sell through that stock like pretty rapidly. So uh I quit my job. At the at that that was at the end of November. Um so we were about to go into another lockdown for Christmas here in the UK. And yeah, I handed my notice in and that was, yeah, now over four years ago. And it's yeah, it's been a wild ride. I don't record Yeah. Amazing. It was quite it wasn't rash. I definitely weighed up the pros and cons and w my partner at the time was saying, you know, go for it. You know, he was also at HSBC uh at the time, so he was, you know, saying, you know, I've got a steady income. So just Take a risk, go for it. Um, and that was four years ago, and in the last couple of years he's also quit to join me. Uh so we've kind of gone all in uh on the socks. Um, but yeah, no, it felt really good. It's I've learnt a lot. It was the right decision for me at the time.
Kurt Elster
So once you you start selling these these bamboo socks full time, what's the next hurdle we run into?
Lucy Jeffrey
always cash flow with a product-based e-commerce business. Like the so I did um the next year, so 2021, I actually went to my university uh and got a grant um and then some investment actually. They're quite a good university in the fact that they have this kind of like accelerator for students and alumni as well. So I went to them for money because it was getting to the point where I was like, I want to grow this, but my blocker is cash. Banks aren't going to lend me money. I'm too risky. I'm an e-commerce business with no kind of really good, strong proof of sales yet. So I had that opportunity. So without that, I think it would have been a much slower uh growth curve. Uh but again each year um and as we'll get into I'm super super seasonal business towards Christmas. So naturally it is quite hard to manage that balance of I need to get stock in for Christmas. But and then I have a really good Christmas and then the money like slowly goes down and down and down until the next Christmas. But it's, you know, it's summertime really here that I need to be paying for my Christmas order. Um so it's managing that balance um is is tricky. Um and we have quite a high MOQ as well to hit with stocks.
Kurt Elster
Most of your sales are gonna happen in Q4, roughly what percent? Like how seasonal is this business?
Lucy Jeffrey
About 70% of our revenue is Q Q. I wear socks 365 days a year. I know. Seventy percent of the sales happen in Christmas. Yeah, it's we're so gifty. We're a real gifty product.
Kurt Elster
So in a business like that, and I feel for seasonal businesses, I spent many years working in a bike shop where it's like, you know, we do everything in three months of the summer.
Lucy Jeffrey
Uh, how do you survive the other nine months? So our B2B uh channel um is kind of what keeps us going through the rest of the year. Um so we've done pretty well uh on a marketplace called Fair uh that entered the UK in 2021 and we were kind of one of the earliest brands onto that platform where we just had a lot of growth in that space. So we were finding a lot of like independent retailers who own their own gift shops. Um, you know, might might be small chains, but it tends to be those kind of indie gifting retailers uh that really liked our product. Um, and they do stock us through the year. And I think their sales are still seasonal because socks sell well at Christmas, but they're a bit more consistent because they've got customers going in, they've got that footfall. It's a good it's a ten pound per pair product, so it's quite an easy add-on for, you know, at the till. Um so our retailers do really well consistently through the year. So we have that consistent channel. Um but it is still it's still hard work kind of managing that seasonality. And that's again why And we'll get into it, is why the agency came about because it is about kind of managing that cash flow and realizing, well, we almost need another revenue stream to kickstart us into the Christmas season and balancing that.
Kurt Elster
Fair fair is this this B2B marketplace, and they've got you know an official sales channel and integration with Shopify that works nicely. And you're not the first Shopify merchant who has told me, like, wow, Fair is has been really great for our business. What uh well uh tell me a little bit about Fair and from your position as Shopify merchant, how it works.
Lucy Jeffrey
Yeah, so yeah, as you said, it's uh it's a marketplace. So I liken it to Etsy, but for B2B. Um so it's independent brands like mine looking for independent retailers. So you're not going into huge chain stores It tends to be a business owner com communicating with a business owner and they want to stock your product. So they can go on and it's a huge marketplace, loads of products. We link through our Shopify. So that means that we can pull all of our product listings into FAIR. So you know basically the work's been done for us and then we just pull it across some optimizations. um to change it kind of for B2B, but at least most of the work's been done, all our uh product photography pulls across as well. Um the other thing that we like about it pulling into Shopify is orders will also pull across into Shopify if you want. And the reason we want that is because all of our Shopify orders get automatically pulled to our 3PL warehouse. So where everything's like happening automatically in the background, it's all synced up. So rather than Previously um we'd have manual orders, so someone would come to us on email saying, Hey, I want to order this, this and this, by the time we get to them, especially at Christmas when things are moving quite fast We have to turn around and say, great, we want to put put this order through, but this stock level is now gone and this and that. So it just removes all of that friction and they can just shop 24-7. Whenever they want. They don't even need to talk to us realistically. They can just shop and that's it. It's done. So it's it's been a massive game changer for us.
Kurt Elster
So really you you plug it in and in s provided people can find you and want what you're selling, you're making these higher volume orders. Like I assume there's an MOQ. You don't have people just buying, you know, a single pair of socks at a discount.
Lucy Jeffrey
It's funny you say that 'cause actually we preach starting with zero moq. We've tested this right so yeah in theory yeah usually B2B is like higher MOQ. However, because FAIR's an algorithm and really you want to be playing into that and just trying to get as many retailers to find you as possible. We've tested various different MOQs and we have found that for us, Zero works really, really well. And we're not really seeing many people come in and just buy one pair of socks. I think if anything, the smaller orders that come in you can tell that they're just testing the waters. If anything, it's a sample order. So rather than doing like a free sampling process, they'll buy like a few different pairs. They might just be wanting to test the quality. They have no idea who we are really until they've like tested us and then they'll come back and they'll order more next time. Um and we sit on the platform and we have a tag that says zero moq. So actually we preach that to people to say try it out for your brand if if you can. You can set shipping costs as different. So they would have to pay shipping on that. But we've actually found that works really well for us.
Kurt Elster
So in theory by getting on we're adding this this B2B wholesale marketplace. Now we're able to sell, you know, into a new channel. Ideally, these become recurring orders, right? If I'm if I buy your product, it sells in my store. I'm gonna come back and buy more. So these are fairly ideal customers, it seems.
Lucy Jeffrey
Absolutely, especially because our a big problem for us is our AOV uh on B2C is about 30 pounds. um which is is quite low, especially when you look at all that cost per acquisition on Facebook houses like twelve pounds um or it was last year anyway. Um so there's you know we don't have a huge amount of margin to play with um really Whereas on B2B, although FAIR do take a commission, unless it's our customer that we have bought to the platform ourselves, they take a commission. And then yes, those customers are just spending more per order. So the cost of everything is just spread out. So the cost of the shipping, the cost of our fulfillment uh pricing and then obviously yeah hopefully they become a returning customer and we have got a lot of customers that have been with us for three or four years now so the lifetime value of those customers is really really good
Kurt Elster
Wow. Alright, I like this, but how does that solve our seasonality problem?
Lucy Jeffrey
Yeah, so other than the fact that the it's a bit more of a consistent revenue stream, so actually Q1 to Q3 are split of D D to C B2B. We're about 70% B2B. So it's quite a strong channel throughout the year. That completely changes by the time you get to the end, you've got the whole calendar year. it changes completely the other way and goes almost back to 70% D to C, which just goes to show like how strong our own website is in Q4. Um, but it's that revenue stream we're getting from B2B is really important for us through the year. But that leads me on to why we ended up starting this agency kind of almost by accident. Um so really really what we were doing was sharing content about Fair and about our socks to try and get more people to buy our socks. So our target was actually Hey retailers in the UK, this is what fare is. Uh, this is how it works and you should buy from us. And we were putting those on YouTube and we started naturally getting more people come to us and ask us about fare because brands asking us about Fair. So brands like us saying, Oh, I can see you're doing well on Fair. Like should should I be using it? Because people just didn't know what it was or how it works. They heard they hear the kind of headline commission and think it's way too steep. Um, and so they kind of coming to us asking us for advice purely because we were very early to using fair search uh keyword terms on YouTube, basically. So I then started sharing advice for brands on YouTube. So it was just kind of me coming on camera and saying, hey, we've done really well on fair. This is how, this is what we're doing, this is what we're up to at the moment. You know, try at zero MOQ, try this in your emails, try this. Um and people started really resonating with it because not many people were sharing this kind of advice. Uh we've been very, very open and honest with everything that wor has and hasn't worked for us. Uh we're very open with our numbers as well. So we'll tell them, you know, the revenue that uh we've got per channel and things. Um and as a result we started realizing that this actually could be an income stream for us. So we started selling a digital course and then digital uh like templates to help with fair and then people started asking us to run their fare accounts for them and then suddenly we had clients paying us to do that. And I was like, well, this is an agency that we've just kind of made out of nowhere, uh, but it is also a very consistent revenue stream. And as a product business owner looking at a service business, I was like, wow, look at all this profit margin. So it's it's very tempting when you look at it from that point of view, but obviously it is also a lot of work
Kurt Elster
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Lucy Jeffrey
Do we get this right? Yeah, absolutely. We just jumped on it, really. And I I think the the other thing that kind of solidified that we were doing the right thing in this space is Fair themselves were loving and still are loving the fact that we share all this content. Obviously, you know, we're talking about them and how good they are and the amazing things they've done for our brand. So it's, you know, it's only a good thing for them. But they also noticing that we're obviously dominating in this space on YouTube. So we're working closer with them now to kind of bring out uh content where possible and we kind of go to their events and when they started coming to us and I I went to their office because we have a brand success manager who works with us on our like bare bare kind account. So they look after our SOC account. That's that's their job. So we'd go to the office to like meet with them and maybe film a video or w whatever it might be. People would know who we were. Like we were almost like famous in the fair office, which is a really, really weird sensation. for us. Um so I was like, okay, we're obviously doing something right, because we've got people coming to us saying that they like our videos. Um and there's not much else on this content, on this topic in this space. So we've just doubled down and kept going on the videos. Uh so we released one every every week. We've got over 200. We're definitely the biggest um channel in this in this niche. And it is very, very niche. But it seems to be working at the moment.
Kurt Elster
That that's really cool. I definitely recognize some things in your story that that I resonate with. Right. Like being early, just happen to being early on Shopify, creating similar content around it early on, uh, and then you know being recognized for it within that like microcosm of the ecosystem. But it's still be, you know, it's different. It's cool. You're like, oh, this is like a sliver of what you know some Sub celebrity is like. Yeah. It's like this is, you know, one one hundredth of that, but you're like, oh, okay, I get it now. It's kind of fun. Um Looking back, what do you th what do you wish you had done differently?
Lucy Jeffrey
On fair or just in general?
Kurt Elster
Uh you know, with growing this this YouTube channel.
Lucy Jeffrey
I think we could have gone even harder at the start. I think I was nervous to go into it. I'm not actually that natural on camera. Um, I really liked doing podcasts. That felt, you know, I just liked the conversation. But actually kind of talking to camera, filming that, you worry about what people are gonna think.
Kurt Elster
You know, it's so different.
Lucy Jeffrey
Yeah, yeah. And you just think you just think it's a bit cringe sometimes, like what you're posting and Ultimately what I've learned.
Kurt Elster
You gotta embrace the cringe. That's the only way is just to be like, yes, this is cringe. Let's go.
Lucy Jeffrey
Yeah, absolutely. Um and that is what is working across YouTube, across LinkedIn, etc. So And ultimately I found that people don't care. So probably the people that I'm most worried about what they think of me is the people that I know. So friends, family, you know, slightly further away connections. But they I don't think they even watch our content. They've got no idea what we're really doing. If you're not in the space, you probably don't understand it. And they're probably looking at us thinking. what on earth are you doing? But no one really says anything. So I I I think I'd wish I'd got rid of that kind of anxiety earlier on and been like, just jump in and play, which is ultimately what we ended up doing. But it wasn't until really last year that we really kick-started the YouTube even further. Um, and we're like, yeah, let's really commit to this and and really grow it. Um, we were just kind of dabbling. Um, and I think we could have gone harder earlier on, but I don't know, I feel like you could and you could say that about anything, right? It's now I'm seeing it as more of an opportunity. It's easy for me to sit here and say, wow, I wish I'd done this earlier.
Kurt Elster
Yeah, the hindsight's 2020. Yeah. Um you get survivor, survivor bias, where you're like, well, it worked for me. Should have done that sooner, faster, better. What um how many subscribers we had?
Lucy Jeffrey
We're at 2,000 now, nearly 2,000. Yeah. Which is so actually a really small channel. But like because it's in the niche, what we're benefiting from, like, so we're we've not done any outbound at all. Like so all the clients that are coming to us, they find us via YouTube. And these are really high value clients. They're spending a lot with us per month. So although it's a fairly small channel, it's growing steadily Um and I'd I'd we only need a small slither of that audience to actually kind of come on board. Yeah.
Kurt Elster
We don't need a huge
Lucy Jeffrey
Yeah.
Kurt Elster
You don't have to have a giant audit. Like you could build a successful business off being a micro influencer. That is the power of being a micro influencer. It's quite incredible.
Lucy Jeffrey
Yeah, it's amazing when you think about it. And I'd actually say most of our audience is American. Uh I think almost exclusively all of our Clients at the moment are US brands as well. Fair Fair's been around in the U. It's a US company, so they've been around in the US for a lot longer than in the UK. So I think naturally there's a lot more growth there. The US economy, the brands seem to be doing although I know everyone's economy is not great at the moment. The US brands do seem to be doing better than the UK ones. Uh we have pretty shallow pockets here in the UK as brands, I'd say. So the US brands seem to be more inclined to take on our service as well. But that just, you know, it's amazing that that's, you know, we're just here in our little, this is our home office, you know, growing our little YouTube channel in the UK and we've got these US brands that find us because of YouTube. It's pretty impressive.
Kurt Elster
It is. It's fun. You know, ultimately, you are running two very different yet similar overlapping businesses. How what's it like, you know, managing these these two separate businesses?
Lucy Jeffrey
Yeah, it can be difficult. So I mean I we me and my husband, we run the both businesses together. Um so the div division of roles is very important for us. um so you know what we're both responsible for um and it can be difficult we're we're being very clear with each other on our direction on both. So we know that at the moment we're in off season as it were for Bearkind, although we're planning our Christmas order right now. um to get all our stock in. We know we're in off season. So actually we've slowed down a lot of things on bare kind. We've actually turned our advertising off like to reduce kind of costs in that side of the business. Um, you know, we've reduced our emails. Uh so we're kind of going quieter on that because we've spent a good few years trying to make bear kind of thing in off season and it's been very hard work. It's we're really in a hamster wheel. So we're kind of leaning towards doing more on the agency at the moment, knowing that probably when it comes up to Q4 Our thought process is we'll probably reduce down, if not stop, acquisition uh on the agency and just keep our current clients and just deliver Q4 for everyone, including bare kind, because obviously for all of our clients as as product brands, Q4 is huge. So we'll probably just reduce down acquisition and kind of have bring that balance back in and then go again next year. So I think that that's how we're kind of looking at it at the moment. Um and we've kind of balanced the team with that. So we've moved some of the bare kind team onto candid founders, uh, because really that's where the work is. at the moment. So it is a ginormous balancing act and I think it's just open communication all the time on like what is and isn't working and where it where the uh priorities are.
Kurt Elster
You know what it's A marriage on its own is not necessarily easy. Adding a business relationship into that and then going, you know what? Let's add another business into it. You're playing on hard mode. What's it do? What's it been like?
Lucy Jeffrey
Yeah, it it was we've got uh better at it. So it's been a couple of years now since we've been working like both of us together on BearKind to start with, then we added in candid founders. Um And I'd say again, the communication side of it is literally the most important thing. Whether you run a business together or not as a as a couple, uh, I think you can do a lot just through like really open lines of communication Um so we worked with we actually worked with like a business psychologist for a while when we first started uh like getting going on the business together because we wanted to sit down and have someone Talk us through like, right, how do we manage this? How do we communicate where our strengths and weaknesses are as people? Um, and kind of having those talks about our roles in the business, actually like having d like the the division of roles as well, both for us and also for the team to understand. Because to start with We just both dived in and both of us were there. And I think everyone was like, do I just go to both of you on everything? And we realized, no, we need to divide and conquer. And that's essentially what we've done. So I'm very much on content, marketing, the website, um, on the Candid Founder side. I'm actually mostly on Candid Founders at the moment. Andy's more on kind of finance, running the team, uh some more operational role. Um, and so and that actually really plays into our strength where I'm kind of more creative. uh wanting to kind of dive into lots of different things and like get my fingers in all kinds of pies and I get really excited about like the next thing and that's ultimately where this has come from because I got too excited about YouTube and then what's next and he's like structure and operations and you know m actually making things making sure things are profitable. Um so I think our strengths play into each other very well, but it's It's not been easy. It is it is very hard doing it um as a married couple, but it's just the communication side of it, I think, is something you have to work on. Absolutely.
Kurt Elster
Well, it sounds like you're you're aware of it and you know actively it's something you actively work on and prioritize. And I think that isn't that's all the difference. You know, just acknowledging that this is the hard part and this is the thing that helps fix it, immediately it's going to go easier. Like that's not a silver bullet, but for sure it it's a great sign. Yeah. I heard you mention you turned off paid ads. Yeah. What has been we had a brand uh last summer who turned off their ads and things really didn't change particularly. We were quite surprised by this. So what what was the for you what happened when you turned off paid ads? And by paid we're talking about meta, right?
Lucy Jeffrey
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Meta. I think we still have a little bit of a trickle on Google, uh, but not a huge spend. Um, but yeah, meta we just completely switched off. Uh we'd been scared to do it previously, but do you know what who scared us out of doing it was pay dad agencies.
Kurt Elster
So the so obviously they have a reason to not they don't have any bias here.
Lucy Jeffrey
So yeah, they'd kinda said, No, you have to keep it going 'cause it feeds things and, you know, all of that rubbish. And to be honest, we got to the end of last year. on Bearkind. We hadn't quite hit the targets we wanted to for the year. So we had to kind of make some drastic changes. So again, that was another reason to kind of go full steam ahead on Candy Founders. We started looking at like where we can sh shuffle the team round a bit and uh we removed our marketing agency at the time. So we had been working with an agency during that kind of Q4 period. They were very good, but it just we were like we're not getting that AOV we want. Um this isn't working. So we just decided let's just switch them off. We need to kind of go back to basics here and see where we go. Amazingly, we're up revenue wise. Therefore we are up profit wise as well. So we're like great.
Kurt Elster
The trick to making more money is just to stop spending ads on meta
Lucy Jeffrey
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I was like, It's happened more than once now. Yeah, come on. I think s someone is lying to us out there. We will probably turn them back on like just before Christmas. We've got some ads that we know work really well for us that have got great robas, but only in Q4. So we're like there's there's just no point having them on at this time of the year. We're not a huge brand. So realistically, we don't have deep enough pockets to just let ads kind of trickle over and not be profitable. We actually need to be profit first and like really focused on that. So yes, what one thing is growing sales, another thing is reducing cost. So we're actually doing much better this year than we thought we would.
Kurt Elster
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Lucy Jeffrey
Yeah, it is. Um, but it's also on purpose. I think because of the seasonality thing. We've um we're we're keeping bear kind ticking over, like we're doing all the things that we need it to, but we realise that after nearly four years now of me full-time on it anyway, it's a one hell of a hamster wheel every year that you just feel you're putting everything into it. and not getting much out. Um, you know, and it's it is yeah, getting trickier to manage. So we've I wouldn't say it's taking a back seat enough that it's not going anywhere, because actually it's doing much better And we're spending less time and money on it, so riddle me that. Um, but it is we've on purpose deprioritized a few things on it. Um, so you know, we're just not being as proactive in certain areas. So we've reduced the amount we're emailing our customers. However, when it comes around back around to Q4 You know, we're doing our stock order now. We're still bringing in lots of new products. Uh, we're still stimulating our wholesale channel, so we're still keeping fare going. Um, but it just means that all our efforts will be focused on Q4 and actually delivering uh for bare kind and then also our our clients' brands. And and I think at the moment that is that is the right decision that seems to be working. But I think with any business it's just good to be able to kind of pivot. This is I think what we've been good at the last few years It's just realizing very quickly what's not working and not being afraid to stop and do something slightly different with it. You know, cut, you know, turning the ads off, for example.
Kurt Elster
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean just throw you don't want to throw good money after bad, but you also want to be trying different things. It's tough. When do you know when to to cut an effort loose?
Lucy Jeffrey
Good question. Um I think it's again, it's that communication piece that uh Andy and I, we do this a lot is where we well have like almost board level sessions with each other. Because it's very easy to be in the weeds of your own business, right? And just be go head down, just go for it. and not take that step back and work out what is actually working. And I think we've got quite good at kind of taking that step back and actually taking time At least every month, please, I think people need to do, but we try and do it every week where you are looking at like what is happening in the business right now and what is working. uh being able to look at your profits because we know revenue is vanity. Um so actually look at that and we've been very, very close on that because it would get to, you know, Q4, everything looks amazing. Christmas is going really well. Our sales are way, way, way up. But then when you dive into it and start looking at the profit and realize that VAT, which is 20% of our sales, is going to be coming off in a quarter's time. But uh we've got our charity donations we've also got all of our like our postage costs over Christmas are huge and that all comes out of our account in like Jan Feb time So you can be looking at your account thinking, wow, look at all these sales, but without actually like diving into it and realizing what money is going to be coming out of your account from a cost point of view. you could be in deep water really, really quick. And you can see how businesses fail so quickly without looking at it. So I really think it's a case of being very, very honest with yourself. on the numbers and being able to react to that. Um so I think being as close to your numbers as possible, which I know not a lot of founders love doing. I I don't, but I'm lucky Andy's like his background is finance. I think that has been where we've been able to pivot quite quickly and avoid anything going too badly wrong.
Kurt Elster
In a in an e-commerce business that sells a physical good, especially, your your north star for this situation that you're talking about, uh really is going to be unit economics, right? I need to know approximately how much money I make on selling a single pair of socks. And because you can with acquisition costs get into a situation where that number becomes negative. And then you're right, a business just gets the more successful it gets, the faster it implodes. In an agency business, what is your equivalent to margin contribution?
Lucy Jeffrey
Do you know what I don't I don't we're looking at our kind of monthly recurring revenue at the moment.
Kurt Elster
Um as a figure.
Lucy Jeffrey
And I think we're we're still learning a lot. Like as a you know, we've just kind of come to this f like fairly recently. We don't have a like a background in it. I'd say we've done very, very well on FAIR and we know what we're doing there. But the agency model, we're taking a lot from the industry, kind of experts on LinkedIn. So I would never say I'm an expert in this yet. We're doing a lot of reading on like how to make this work. I think for us we're realizing that the biggest thing for us right now is getting our operations right for this. Um, because we're getting these good clients coming in that are willing to pay for our service. And I think that model right now, because we're currently basically borrowing bare kinds team. and we've got like upskilled them and we've got the right people to make this kind of agency team, we're now realizing that what we're aiming for really is trying to work out how many clients we can service Per pod, as it were. So we've got a pod of kind of like an SEO expert, kind of a account manager, uh, an email person, and a kind of customer service person. So we've got this little pod And we're trying to optimize that so obviously that pod can service more clients and then we want to add more pods so we can then service more clients. So At the moment we're going for the pod model. Um so we've got the monthly recurring revenue and then we're trying to work out how many clients we can actually service. Um so I think it's yeah, we definitely don't have that nailed down yet, we're still trying to work it out. And I think as agency owners, we're also very much in the weeds of these clients' accounts at the moment as well. So learning a lot. Um, but I obviously want to get to the point where we have pods that are fairly like self-sufficient and then we're kind of diving in and managing the pod rather than managing the clients. But that just shows where we're quite like early to it. But the clients love it because they get us like one-on-one quite a lot. Um so I think it's We're definitely overservicing uh clients at the moment, but I just think that is also naturally uh the kind of space we're in being quite a young agency.
Kurt Elster
You know, the the other metric I like, MRR is really good. You know, that whether in any business, um, but agency business especially, I like knowing monthly recurring revenue. That buys a lot of peace of mind. Uh effective hourly rate, I like Uh yeah. I really I I like the the pod model that you're using for you build like this is a team, they could service up to X clients. Okay, then here's you know team two could serve up to X clients. But then trying to figure out You know, how many that's the squishy part because you know some clients require more or less effort, you know, just depending on what like their internal resources in communication is like Yeah.
Lucy Jeffrey
Oh absolutely. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, and it's you know, all these clients are slightly different in nuances of what product they're selling, what market they're in, and actually their seasonality as well. Um, you know, and obviously if we bring on the new client, there's naturally a lot more servicing burden for us up front. getting them set up uh depending on how good their account is on fair at the start as well. Um, you know, one massive part of the service that we offer is this like SEO optimization piece that we do for them on fair. So naturally some clients just have more products. So if they've got a bigger catalogue, it's more of a burden on us in terms of like how many products we have to optimize. So yeah, I I do think that's a piece that we're working on. And as you said, yeah, it is squishy. Having these like different levels of and and also how much that how hands-on the founder is as well because some will be very much in the weeds and the detail and very like back and forth on things. And then other founders are so overwhelmed and busy that they're like, please just handle this and I trust you and just update me once you've done it. Um, so very, very different personalities and founders as well, which is very interesting. But it works in our favor because we're founders ourselves. We run our own product business. So we we're coming to it from a level of understanding you know, where their head is at. And it does build trust and credibility with with the clients as well, because they can see that we're also in the space.
Kurt Elster
Yeah, you have the same, you know, very similar lived experience. It's a you're able to relate um and speak the language. I think that helps a lot too. Absolutely. All right. I could go over agency service businesses all day, but I want to know what advice do you give to brands now who are considering fair?
Lucy Jeffrey
Yeah, so I I mean I really if you're considering it and not sure whether to do it, I'd always just say give it a try because you're not really gonna lose much. I think so. The FAIS model, their their commission model, it makes it sound really expensive, like up front. So basically at the marketplace, if they find you a customer through their algorithm, uh so someone who'd not come across you before, they find you on fair, they purchase your products, first order is 25% commission, if they reord reorder is 15% commission. But there is another bucket where if you bring that a customer, so if you find someone, whether at a trade show or you've approached them online, you bring them into the platform and you sell through like your link or QR code or however you choose to do it. um 0% commission. So actually over time and we've built a nice shiny tool that like dou basically downloads all your fair data. um and then analyzes your customer spend and all of this and also your kind of actual commission rate. Ours is sitting at about 10% total, not 25% that you kind of that headline figure that you hear and get scared of. But actually, because we've done a lot of work to bring in lots of our own customers and also bring in a lot of return business, the 25% is actually quite a small proportion of our pot of customers. So I'd say one, don't be scared off by that headline figure because it doesn't always end up being that much. And two, it is an algorithm, so learn how to play the game. um it's you do have to put work and do SE optimization and actually use the platform and message your customers through it. You can't really just sit there and for just leave your brand to kind of tick over anymore. Maybe you could have done back in the day when it was an earlier platform, but It's quite a saturated marketplace now. So I just really recommend actually like going in and thinking what are you going to do, what work are you going to do for your brand. If you're lucky enough to have someone in your team to run the account for you, there's actually so many kind of micro optimizations you can make. And that's where I'd really recommend looking at our YouTube. We've got loads of guidance on there on how to do it for yourself. You don't even need to come to us. um directly just go to the YouTube which is Candid Founders and there's there's loads of advice on there.
Kurt Elster
Yeah, in the show notes I will include uh your Candid Founders YouTube channel, Candid Founders website, uh a couple links for fair wholesale on Shopify, and of course Bear Kind, where we can get sweet bamboo turtle socks. Absolutely. Thank you. Uh Lucy Jeffery, any any place else people should connect with you?
Lucy Jeffrey
Uh do reach out on LinkedIn. Yeah, if you've listened to this podcast and want to chat about anything, um I'm yeah very active on LinkedIn. But yeah, it's mainly YouTube really. This is where I'm like putting most of my content. Um yeah, so please do check it out. If you're on fair and struggling with it or think you don't have the bandwidth for it, but see it as an opportunity, which I really think it is. Yeah, reach out to us. We'd be happy to help.
Kurt Elster
Wonderful. And you know what? I added your LinkedIn to the show notes and I connected with you. Amazing. So we're now LinkedIn friends. Lucy Jeffrey, Bear Kind, Candid Founders, thank you so much. This has been great. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Crowdfunding campaigns are great. You can add social proof and urgency to your product pre-orders while reducing risk of failure. But with traditional crowdfunding platforms. You're paying high fees and giving away control all while your campaign is lost in a sea of similar offers. It can be frustrating. That's why we built Crowdfunder. The Shopify app that turns your Shopify product pages into your own independent crowdfunding campaigns. We originally created Crowdfunder for our private clients. and it was so successful we turned it into an app that anyone can use. Today, merchants using Crowdfunder have raised millions collectively. With Crowdfunder You'll enjoy real-time tracking, full campaign control, and direct customer engagement. And it's part of the Built for Shopify program, so you know it's easy to use. So say goodbye to High Fees and hello to successful store-based crowdfunding. Start your free trial and transform your Shopify store into a pre-order powerhouse today. Search Crowdfunder in the Shopify App Store to get started.