w/ Mat De Sousa, The Wide Company
Sit down with the insightful Mat De Sousa, a trailblazing Shopify app developer whose creations, Wide Bundle and Wide Review, have generated enviable annual recurring revenues. His story is a testament to the entrepreneurial spirit that flourishes within the Shopify community and serves as inspiration for anyone looking to innovate in this space.
Listen in as we explore the art of transforming a simple idea into a thriving Shopify app. By honing in on customer pain points, asking the right questions, and targeting niche markets, we unravel how app developers can create solutions that resonate with users, save time, and conserve resources, all while paving the way for a successful product launch.
Kurt Elster
Today on the unofficial Shopify podcast, we will be discussing apps. Yes, apps are are always top of mind, a thing we always talk about with Shopify, that app store. You know, that there's an app for that. Whether whatever feature you want to add, integration, um analytics and reporting, there's always some app that could do it. So as a Shopify merchant, Yeah, many times y you live and die by your your apps. And that's why on social media you see posts about like, this is the perfect tech stack to build an e-com business. And it's really just like here's a list of apps. Everybody loves going to the app store and playing app roulette. If I just get the right combination of apps, then maybe, you know, I will Grow my conversion rate. Twenty percent I'll I'll make more sales or increase average order value. There is an attraction to it. And so We're gonna be discussing apps from the perspective of an app developer. And we're gonna hear like, okay, what's that process like? How do you find the app? How do you scale the app? Let's get into it and kind of hear that that other side of the story with apps. You know, We've always looked at it from like, all right, I'm a merchant. This is what I use. Now let's hear it from a uh a Shopify app developer who also happens to be a Shopify app evangelist who makes all this great content um about uh developing apps and scaling them and really uh being very candid and sharing his journey. So joining us uh from Paris is Matt D'Souza, uh a man who's got uh he's been through a few apps and his most recent uh app wide bundle and i think he has another one we'll find out but i know their their annual revenue recurring revenue oh sweet sweet recurring revenue Over half a million a year US. Whoa. That's quite good. That certainly does better than any of my apps. I'm your host, Kurt Elster. Jack Nasty. Matt D'Souza. Welcome to the show. Hey, thanks for having me. Oh, uh so did in my intro, did I did I get everything right? Do we have any corrections?
Mat De Sousa
We have everything. We can say the name of the second app, which is Wide Review, but it's way smaller than White Bundle.
Kurt Elster
Okay. And how long have you been developing Shopify apps? When did you start? I started in 2017 actually. Yeah, you're a young man.
Mat De Sousa
How old would you have been? Uh so I'm 26 today and I started when I was 20 I think something like this. So are you in university? Uh yeah. I was ac actually studying engineering in school and that's when I discovered Shopify apps and when I learned how to build them.
Kurt Elster
And had you had like um computer science background prior to then?
Mat De Sousa
No, not at all. This is sometimes what people don't like they think that I did some engineering school to learn how to code. And stuff like that, but I didn't. Actually, I learned how to code when I was 13. Um, so I was a child and it was just for video games. It was like a hobby for me. and I did something completely different because I studied uh engineering, uh Financial and stuff like that.
Kurt Elster
I hope I could get my my kids on a similar path. I'm like, they're all, you know, all three of them really interested in video games, really interested in their devices. And so I don't fight it. I encourage it. And but I try to get them into the nerdier aspects of things. And so like the uh you know, the oldest I've gotten to him, I found him like editing config files so that he could vaguely cheat at games. And I was so thrilled. I'm like, yes, this is how it starts. I remember that's like how I got interested in development like you at that age was because of gaming. And so I think gaming is if you're a parent, you're worried about it, like just treat gaming as the gateway drug to computer science.
Mat De Sousa
Yeah, no, this is a good thing. And actually the story was a bit uh funny is that I was playing video games and the game I was playing, which is a French game called Dofus I don't know if you know it. Uh actually they changed a lot of things on the on the game itself and many people including myself didn't like it anymore. And so we kind of created our own game that was similar to this one. And this is how I entered into the programming thing.
Kurt Elster
And so then years later, what's how do you discover Shopify apps? What makes you go, I should build a Shopify app?
Mat De Sousa
Um so what happened is that in um 2017 actually I was uh doing the first internship that I had to do for the engineering school. And the problem was that at that time I wanted to work at a big company like Facebook, Google or stuff like that. Um and the first internship that I did I didn't really like it. It was like I I don't understand why. Because the team was good, the work was pretty chill. But the only thing is that I felt like it wasn't for me And so at that time I just typed on Google like how to make money, uh how to make money online and stuff like this. And this is when I discalled it Shopify and all the ecosystem, including everything related to dropshipping and stuff. And I pretty much discovered that many merchants wanted to improve their store. And so that's how I started, just doing freelancing jobs for uh Shopify merchants. And then once I um So that many people wanted the same thing, I just decided okay, maybe it's time to build an app so that many people can use it and I just have to code it once and to build it once and many people can use it at the same time.
Kurt Elster
So you were doing um like development services for Shopify merchants. Exactly. Um and in that you notice like there's commonalities. There was a recurring recurring requests. You're like, wait a second. I could make this publicly available more self-service via an app. I think this is a brilliant way to go about it. Because like you are, you know, when you're jumping into it for the first time. you're getting that experience one-on-one with the with the customers. Nothing more valuable than that by working with merchants. And then you start to see, okay, here are the opportunities. So I'm guessing that wide bundle and wide review were not your first apps, that you didn't hit it out of the park on the first go. What's the first app?
Mat De Sousa
They were not actually. So the first app was called Exit Counter. And the goal of that app was basically to Check how the visitors on the Shopify store uh were acting, like checking what they were doing, and based on some behaviors and stuff, we would show them some pop-up. So that's um they would stay on the store. Yeah, kind of similar to that. But the only thing is that it was actually on the checkout, and that was the power of that. Is that it wasn't a checkout because at that time you could add some custom code to the checkout. And so I brought my first Shopify app to add some code to the checkout. And so you could Check what people were doing and so on an exit intent and stuff like this you could show them some uh discount codes and stuff so that they could stay on the page and the goal was to increase the conversions. Chopify didn't really like it at the time, but it was kind of allowed.
Kurt Elster
Right. Yeah, they're the checkout is a sacred space. Right. They did not and have not loved We yeah, we would sideload code into it because it would you could add like checkout scripts. And so it you know you could sneak code in it that way uh with JavaScript, or if they're on Shopify Plus, checkout. liquid gave you access to it. But then like every six months they're like, by the way, we're gonna update this, so you gotta redo, you know, whatever changes. It was a little messy. And so today Now we have the more formal methods of checkout extensions. Um all right, so we had you've got a a checkout specific exit intent app that Approve for a listing on the store, but Shopify gives the side eye. You had there are two others. What were they?
Mat De Sousa
Yes, exactly. So actually for the first I couldn't be on the checkout because you could do it, but Shopify didn't really approve it. So I wasn't on the app store in the in the beginning. Um and after some time, Shopify did change something and you couldn't add some script anymore to the checkout. So I kind of had to kill this app. And what was great about it is that I didn't build this app myself. Uh I I mean I wasn't the only co-founder. I built this app with two other people and these two other people were Shopify merchants. And so they had the idea for that app. I didn't have the idea. And so we didn't make a lot of money with that app, but we did make some money, I mean at least more than what I used to make with my businesses and the different apps that I tried to make in the past. Um and after this one, what I did is was I tried to build a second Shopify app. So that Shopify app, the goal of that app was to add some banners on your store because it was the moment GDPR was something in Europe. Um and you needed to display that you were collecting cookies. And so I thought maybe it's time to create a better app so that people can just install it and display the GDPR banner that you had to put on your on your store. And so that's what I did because I assumed people would need it. But in reality, no one installed my app. I don't know why, but I guess they didn't really need it Up so that was the second app and the third app that I tried to do.
Kurt Elster
Ugh. Brutal. Yeah. The first one, SwiFi essentially, was like, that's a no-go.
Mat De Sousa
Yeah, no, exactly, exactly. So the second app didn't work and so what I did was for the third one I did the exact same mistakes basically what I think people would need And so that one was just to track how the stores on uh Shopify were updating their prices, what new products they had. Basically is doing some benchmark about um everything that is happening on the Shopify cost system, which is a bad idea because Shopify doesn't really like it. Um and also that no one needed that. But I thought it was cool, so I built it and no one installed, so I had to kill it also.
Kurt Elster
The alright. So even after that the three really doesn't work out too well. The first one you're like, alright, I got a taste of it. This number two and three, no go. And after that, you're like, alright, uh I'm gonna do this a fourth time.
Mat De Sousa
Actually, this is not exactly how it happened. So For the first app I did make some money and I thought that I was the best in the world at that at like at building Shopify apps. So that's why I built a second one and a third one and it didn't work. And so When I beginner beginner's luck. Yes, exactly, kind of. And also because I was doing this with some co-founders. They were merchants. And so we actually brought something that people needed. And but for the other ones, since I wasn't a merchant, I didn't know exactly what people needed. And so I just built, I had some ideas, I built it, and no one installed it. So that was the problem. And after the the third app, I just quit. uh for maybe one or two years. I just felt like it wasn't for me. Shopify apps is not good. And for the last one, what what happened is that in 2020 I had to do the final internship before graduating and before having to get a real job. But I didn't want to. That wasn't my goal. And my goal was to build a business so that I could live with this business, work on that business instead of having a normal job. And so at that time I had six months and I asked my school, can I just build a company instead of doing the internship? They accepted. And the goal for me at the time was to Work during six months on a business and it was like the last step. I had six months and I had to make it work so that I didn't have to get a job. And I looked at all the things that I knew. Um building, coding, Shopify, and I asked myself, what can I do in six months? What is the best thing that I can do? And I had a network of Shopify merchants. I had a bit more knowledge about building SaaS businesses. I knew how to build a Shopify app. And so I just told myself, okay, maybe let's give it another try. But this time we'll do things differently. What were you gonna do differently? So instead of me having the idea and building it, I would have someone else have the idea, someone in the business, in the Shopify store business. And they will give me the idea and I will build it. And this time I will build something that people actually need. And so what I did at that time was that I talked to as many Shopify merchants as possible. And at some point I noticed I noticed that three different people wanted a better Buddha app. They wanted a bottle app that didn't exist. Um with a different design, a different way of working. And so I just packed everything and I said, all right, you want a better bundle app. I mean better in some way. They wanted a different design stuff. I packed everything and I brought it. And so I built it in 2WX. Uh so the first version in 2X, just adding everything they wanted, even if it wasn't the best app. The goal was just I release what they need. We'll see what they say. And so I did it. And I had a few installs because I was building something that people actually needed. And I built something that people already asked for. So I could just contact them and say, hey, I just built this app. You wanted it. What do you think? I did the exact same thing with all the people I contacted and I said, I built this app. Do you want to try it? And two weeks after starting. I had I think it was like nine users, something like this. So it wasn't big, but it was enough to start and it was already more installs than I had with the other two apps.
Kurt Elster
So right away, you knew like you're like, all right, I'm gonna we're gonna start carefully here. We're gonna validate the idea. We're gonna talk to merchants to get the idea, identify pain points, and then You're closing the loop. You're going back to them and saying, hey, we've got this available. And then they when they were willing to try it and had positive feedback, you're like, okay, this time I got it. So you build minimum viable product first. And it only took you two weeks. Yes, only two weeks. And so that but it was like real stripped down, much simpler than what it is now. And then as you got them, they're like, okay, we like this, but it needs to do XYZ. And then I assume it's like, all right, you look for the overlap of people request it, you know, like this is the number one most requested feature. We add that.
Mat De Sousa
Yes, this is exact exactly what I did. And actually um the MVP was like a real MVP. It means that It was working only for four Shopify themes, four different Shopify themes, and it wasn't working if you had many variants. It means that you you didn't have to like you needed a product without any variants, without any options. Uh because what I s what I did was I talked to the different people who needed it. I saw what they were selling and what themes they were using. And so I just built for them. Because the goal was just, let's try this. It's not working for everyone. And as I was getting more people, I was just adding more themes and making it better so that more people could use it. That was the goal. Just make it work for a few people, and this is what I did
Kurt Elster
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Mat De Sousa
I wanted to be the the app work.
Kurt Elster
And s so you put in all the work only to find out, well actually no one was interested in that, but you never asked, so who knew? By the time the fourth one rolls around, you're like, I already got this. Um what and this but it the so number one is identify need the market. And that was just straight up by asking people. Like what it Generally, if when I ask people, I'm like, what app do you want? They don't necessarily know, like, how do you do those conversations go? How do you frame that?
Mat De Sousa
Yeah, so this isn't about going to them and asking them what do you want? What problem do you have? Let me build something This is more about a conversation. You talk to that person about anything. That business, what they do, what they use. And the goal here is to ask a lot of questions and to go deep into each topic. So whenever they tell you something, you will ask them like why? Why do you have this? Or why do you do that? And at some point you will discover something, like a problem or something that they might need. Um and the if they talk about the business and whatever they're doing, at some point they will talk about some problems they faced. And so the goal then is just to understand, is there something that I can build to fix it? Or like what did you use to fix it? So this is one way of doing it and the other way for a Shopify app, for example, since everyone is using Shopify app, I would ask them what Shopify app do you use And they will tell me, hey, are you this app this one? And then uh, what don't you like about this app? Why don't you use something else? And the goal, same thing, is to find some problems or some things that I can improve. And just to give me a little window that I can open in uh that I can open and just go inside and start building my thing.
Kurt Elster
I love that I've done over five hundred of these interviews, and a majority of them were with Shopify merchants, and it Often it starts with, I identified a painter problem that was not solved or was not solved well. And then I said, I could solve that. And whether you're selling, you know, a physical good or an app or a service, it really it that's the cornerstone. That is the the starting point for so many successful businesses. Um so a lot of And it, you know, it's accessible. Anyone who's got email and a phone, right, can can do these things. I just I love that approach for you know starting any entrepreneurial endeavor. And you know, ideally it it saves you a lot of uh a lot of wasted time down the road by you know you're not chasing ideas that like n that aren't actual problems to solve. You've got two apps at the Shopify App Store now How often do you have app ideas and you go, all right, I just gotta say no to that? Like don't go building another one right now
Mat De Sousa
Whenever I talk to Shopify merchants, there is something. Now that I know exactly the process, how do you find ideas? How do you ask questions? What questions do you ask? Most of the time I will have ideas and I will just put it on the side and be like, let's focus on my thing. And it's not because I have ideas that I have to build them and that they will work and stuff like that. Because once you have the idea. you obvious obviously have to check if many people will have that problem too. Uh what you could do about it, what exists on the market. But I have ideas every not every day, but like maybe every month I have some ideas Uh recently I was in a French event in Paris with uh only a few Shopify merchants and I was talking to that new person. He had a socks business.
Kurt Elster
I don't know if I pronounce it right, but like a sucks business in in front of it has to go more nasal. Sacks.
Mat De Sousa
Okay, sacks, sax business. All right. And so uh it was just sharing how it grew it's and I was interested in that. Like I was asking a lot of questions, not because I wanted to find ideas, but just because I was interested, you know. And at some point he told me, and I will probably share something that I never shared before, like Shopify up ideas or stuff, but he shared something related to SMS uh apps. And uh I have to look at my notes. But he said something about, oh, in France we can't really use this, or like we have this other problem related. Maybe I think it was a GDPR or I don't remember, but I I he said something about There is a problem with current SMS apps, so that we ended up building our own system. And so he was using directly uh I think it was Twilio or something like this to send SMS and he created his his own system to send it. And he said that I can't really use these Shopify apps. And so maybe you can build something. And he said, maybe you can build it. And I said, I I don't I can't really do it because I have already this Shopify apps. But it didn't I didn't start the conversation and he told me hey I have this brand build it it's when talking during the conversation We started to talk about it and he just told me I have that problem. And so I asked I asked him like what is the problem exactly? Why can't you use this app or this one? And this is just about that. And so I have a lot of ideas every time just because you have to talk to people. And when you talk to people, you obviously find some problems that they have that maybe you can fix.
Kurt Elster
I see this, um, like often I'll see this in, you know, a Facebook group, Slack, Discord, whatever, where someone's like, hey, got this app idea. You know, I know this is a winner, but I'm not technical. I can't build it. And the often they're like, you know, I want a technical co founder. The and you know, you had um, you know, you weren't necessarily thinking of yourself as a developer early on or had access um and you you had co-founders what what advice do you have for someone who goes, all right, I want to build an app, but I'm not technical.
Mat De Sousa
Yeah, so um you have many ways of doing it. First of all, you can learn all by yourself how to code, but this is not what I recommend. Um because if you want to code just because you want to build this app and you don't really love coding, the problem is that you will give up because it's complicated and you have to code and code and code to to learn how to do it. The second thing is, and this is what I recommend is partner with a developer. So you are the marketer and you have a developer. And this is probably the best combo, to be honest. Yeah, you are like chuck off on this. You have the technical guy, you have the marketer guy. And to find a developer, like sometimes the problem is not Hey, I I don't know how to build it. Sometimes it's I don't know how to find a car founder, like a technical car founder. And it's funny because technical founders have the exact problem but on the other side. I don't know how to find a marketer and stuff like this. And what I tell people, since I know both, you know, I know how to code, but I don't really consider myself a caller because I'm not a good one. I know how to build an app, but I'm not a good one. Um and I kind of like marketing. I like marketing and I think this is what I like the most. And I've seen what I did because when I'm in the coding mindset and the coding um State, I will find a lot of developers. It's easy. And at the same time, when I'm doing marketing and I'm in this state of let's do marketing, it's easy to find marketers. And the idea here is that you just have to act like the person you want to attract. And this is funny because if you want to attract developers Then you should start following people that these developers would follow, whether it's on LinkedIn, whether it's on on Twitter or YouTube or somewhere else. Start following the people they would follow. Start attending the events that they would attend. Um, start searching for the things that they would search, and at some point you will discover Where developers aggregate online or offline and it will be so easy for you to find them, to talk to them. And uh to find a pilot like that. And then it's the same thing. You have to have conversations, you have to talk to them, and at some point you will maybe discover someone with a match and you will feel like this is the right person. This is just about acting like the person you want to attract. And so you will do things that they will do.
Kurt Elster
I love this idea. In marketing we call this holding up the mirror. You know, if if someone sees if they recognize themselves, if like whatever that that state of mind is, that need, then they identify with it. And then that's how you go to the next step. And so you're saying, all right. Combine that idea with networking online and you will naturally attract the the type of person and the opportunities you're looking for. There's a a TED talk I love that um I've heard this described as creating a luck sale. You can manufacture opportunities so you can create luck for yourself. And you're doing that by just making yourself seen and making it obvious to everyone else, like this is what I'm open to. This is the opportunities I'm looking for. And, you know, I'm walking the walk and talking the talk. Um it it works surprisingly well. Obviously, if you you stay silent and no one is aware, you're not going to see those opportunities. So, all right, if once I, you know, either I I build the app myself, I've got a co-founder, I've got I've validated the idea, I've got it in the app store. You know, and that's like you know, we could do a whole ten minutes just on talking about going through that that app store review process. Um, which it's not as bad as people say. It's like you You know, they're gonna tell you, okay, this is what you need and why. And then you either you go, okay, we have made those changes, or they're reasonable if you go, we've made four of your five changes, but number five We didn't, but here is the reason why. And they'll either go, Oh, okay, we understand, or uh they'll say, All right, well, you know, here here's why you still need to do that, or here's like the alternative workaround. And so, you know, you go through What you know, a few rounds of that, you're good to go. Um how long, how long does that process typically take from like you submit the app? to it gets listed in the app store. I mean they they do they really vet all these apps.
Mat De Sousa
So in the beginning, like a few years ago, it was re it it took a really long time. because I think the team wasn't as big as today. And so you could be in the process for three months. Because uh the first time you would submit it and they would you you would have to wait like two weeks before getting the first feedback and then you make all the changes. You submit again when we clutter they come back to you with sometimes new things that you have to change and so it could take a long time. Today I've heard people uh who submitted some apps and the app was listed in two days. Sometimes it was one week, two weeks. But um I've heard someone recently in two days they had a new app um from submission to being um listed on the app store. It was only two days. So I think today in one one or two weeks you can have your app listed if you can make the improvements and the changes quickly, obviously. Because if they ask you to gen something and it takes you one month to make it, then it will take some time. But if you can make it quickly and then submit again, then you can be in the process for a week and it can be enough.
Kurt Elster
Yeah, it really I have found it to be fairly straightforward and not as long as people think. Uh so once you have the app in the app store listed in live. It's certainly it's not set it and forget it. What how do we attract merchants to get installs? What strategies have you found effective for for growth?
Mat De Sousa
Yeah, so the first thing is that people sometimes think that they have to build the app, release on the app store, and then they can leave it here and people will naturally come. This isn't true. And this is what I recommend people to um Find merchants outside the Shopify App Store in the beginning. The same way as I did. You know, you talk to people, you make some connections on LinkedIn, on on Twitter or somewhere else. And you just find your early users that way. This is how I found the nine first users for White Bundle. And what is great about that Is the moment you launch on the app store and you have these people, you can immediately ask them to leave a review on the app store. I mean they can try your app, they can do whatever they want, but then they can leave a review on the app store. And if you have a new app and you start to get many reviews in the beginning, for example, you get like five reviews quickly, then you will already be ahead of The majority of the Shopify apps. And the algorithm of the Shopify App Store will basically say, all right, it's a new app. It already gets some reviews. This is probably a good Shopify app. And we will push it. So you might appear on the homepage, you might appear in the Shopify recommendations section that you have in the different Shopify admin. And basically you will start to get people. And then you need to do like any places like Google or any App Store, you have to improve your keywords. You have to Create your listing so that you can attract the people that type the right keywords. So you get reviews. Then obviously you will improve your images so that when people click on your listing They want to install your app based on what you're showing, so you will improve that. And then you can do some marketing outside the Shopify App Store. Because the Shopify App Store today is a bit more crowded and It's more complicated to grow only with the Shopify App Store. But if you're doing something on the side and you have the Shopify App Store, then it's a great combo and it's a great combination that you can use. But the the thing is just try to get some early traction outside so that you can push it to the to the Shopify App Store and start to get traction from the Shopify App Store itself. And then you can grow like that because many people still search on the Shopify App Store and so you can get some installs.
Kurt Elster
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Mat De Sousa
Um so I tried some ads, but I this isn't something that I use because at the time at that time when when I tried them and still today they are really expensive. So based on the keywords you want, like the most popular keywords, they are really expensive. And since you pay whenever someone clicks on the ad and not when someone installs your app, it can be really expensive quickly. And uh it doesn't mean that people will install and use your app. Um some people had success with Shopify apps by targeting with but with Shopify Ads, Shopify Apps or ads by targeting long tail keywords so that you go after the very specific keywords people will type so you know that when they type it they won't start your app. But it's I mean it's if you have some money, obviously you can run some ads um because it it allows you to get some users in the beginning But recently Shopify has been releasing new ads, so you can now do ads on the homepage. At Shopify edition this year in one winter, they said that they were releasing different like different ways of making ads and you can target like locally and stuff like that.
Kurt Elster
Right. Yeah, the the longer phrases, more exact match, lower quantity, higher quality is the idea. Yeah, and the way you described so I I have run and am still running uh PPC ads in the Shopify App Store. And the way you described it, that is that's been It fairly accurate to my experience. That's like the the longer keyword phrases um on the m the higher dollar apps. Then it makes sense. Lower dollar app or like broader stuff or more crowded, suddenly it's like, well, this may or may not be worth it. So again, you know, the answer is it depends. Same as really uh advertising opportunity. You've got, oh, you have so many reviews on these apps. And we live and die by the reviews and you have positive reviews. What's the secret? When do you ask for reviews? Especially early on. Like it people are less likely to install an app that has no reviews or very few reviews.
Mat De Sousa
Yeah, so um the first thing is that people sometimes are afraid of asking for a review. This is the biggest problem, I think. It's like, no, this guy has been using the app for only a week. I should wait a little bit before asking for a review. I think this is the problem. You don't want to ask for review because You think that they have to wait a little longer to to leave that review? Or you think that they will leave, for example, a three-star review because they didn't try the app for a long time? This is the problem. You should ask for review even if they spent if if they've spent like one day with your app. It doesn't matter. Because what matters is the experience they have and they can try you out for a day and already love it. And the problem is that The reviews on the app store are a bit weird. Sometimes can be sometimes so sometimes someone can use your app for like a year. They've been using your app for a year, but one day there is a problem Your app is not working for some reason and this is the moment they will decide to leave a review. And a bad one, obviously.
Kurt Elster
You get that one star frustration review. Exactly. And it's usually like For me, it'll be like, you know, they left it at 1 a. m. I'm like, I know you were tired, you were frustrated, and you vented on my review And then so then you have to reply to it and be like, okay, we reached out. We're trying to help. And if you're lucky and you can resolve it for the person And they're reasonable. They'll they'll revise the review and you know be like, okay, they fixed it for me. If you're unlucky, the worst case scenario is you resolve the problem for them and then they still don't revise the review. Oh, that one stings. Oh that's that's rough.
Mat De Sousa
That's the problem. And sometimes they don't even reply. You try to reach out and they don't reply.
Kurt Elster
And so you just have to do it.
Mat De Sousa
Yeah, no, that's sometimes that's complicated. And so to get a lot of reviews, first of all, if you're not afraid of getting bad reviews, you have to ask for reviews. And so They will leave bad reviews when they're frustrated. This is something important to know. People will leave bad reviews when they're frustrated and not when they're angry. This is the difference. Is that uh people are angry When something isn't working well or they didn't expect something, but they're angry and they feel like their problem can be solved And when it's the case, they will not leave a badge with you if they just angry. Some will, but the majority of the people will not leave a badge with you when they're angry What what they will leave a bad review when they're frustrated and frustration comes after someone was angry. So they were angry, they didn't have the problem solved And so they go into another state, which is frustration, because it's like when you're angry but you feel like it's hopeless. You can't do anything else. They can't solve your problem. And so they have frustration. And that's exactly when they will leave the bad regime. Um and so if you ask for a review when someone is not frustrated, even if they're angry or stuff, you don't ask for review, but if someone is angry, for example, they you can fix the problem. It will be great, they won't leave a bad review. It's only if You can't fix the problem and they were angry that it will leave the review because they are not they're they are now frustrated. And so to get a lot of reviews, you just have to ask for the review at the best time. And the best time is the contrary, when they had that spike of um happiness, and usually after the aha moment. And the best aha moment is after you solved a problem, question or something on support. So they contact support, they have a question, you fix that problem, whatever it is, but like they have this spike of happiness, and that's exactly when you can say, all right, hey, do you love the app? Can you can you leave a Riji? And since most Shopify versions are listening to us, um, I think that they can agree. They like they agree with that. It's like when whenever you connect support and they reply fast and they have the answer quickly and they fix your problem, then you're more likely to to leave a review and to leave a good one. Because you you had this kind of you know good happiness and and and you're happy that they fixed it and so you can leave the region. So this is what we do Whenever someone contacts our support, we fix it and we ask for a review. And in the beginning, sometimes people tell me, I don't have many conversations. I don't have any bugs. People don't conduct my support. And so this is what I said.
Kurt Elster
That's a tough space to be in. The person who reaches out and goes, I have an issue. Can you help? And then you fix it, those are the people who leave the best reviews.
Mat De Sousa
Yes, exactly. Exactly. This is the best time. And when you don't have enough conversation, you can create your problems. I don't mean that you have to create bugs on your app. What I mean is that you can contact the people. Even if they don't contact you. So like you have the live chat, for example, in the app, they open the app, you send a message, hey, I just saw that you opened the app. Can I help you with something? Or hey, um, I see that you spent some time on this page. Do you have any problem? And so you you you go after the problem. So then they can tell you, hey, yeah, I'm trying to do this. I don't understand, I don't know how to do it. And so you can help them and then they will leave the review. So you create your own conversations. This is a good way when you're just starting. And this is what we did in the beginning. We were connecting connecting every single people, every single person that was installing the app. Because that way we can have conversation, we can have some feedback and we can get this review.
Kurt Elster
Yeah. I again, I mean, but early on, you're like, hey, the app starts with you have to talk to people and figure out painter problem. And now it's like, hey, what about reviews? Well, you need to talk to people. Hey, what you know, what about features and and upgrades? You need to talk to people. That's everything. Like you can't you can't hide from your customer, right? You and you can't wait for them to contact you. You have to be actively seeking out and engaging them. Um, and this has got to be true of any business. You share your whole experience with with running Shopify apps online and you've got a a community of people and you've developed an audience. But the audience is not necessarily your customers. It's other, it's Shopify app developers, it's prospective Shopify app developers. Why? You know, what what motivates you to do it?
Mat De Sousa
Yeah, because at that time um I'm not even selling anything to them. Maybe I will in the future, I don't know. But right now I'm not selling anything. It's been two years since I started to post online. I'm even creating some free content with free products and stuff. But the only thing is that when I started in 2017, I didn't find anything about building Shopify apps. It means that I had to figure out everything by myself. Uh I failed. I tried some other things. So the reason why I'm doing that is that, and this is what I say, and I love that sentence, is just I want to be the guy I wanted to meet when I started. This is the first thing. So that's why I'm sharing everything. Just to show people what I did so that they can do the same. The second thing is that Um I wanted to write contents and in the beginning I wanted to write content about e-commerce, obviously to attract users for my apps. But the only thing is that I wasn't the merchant and I don't know it sharing online about e-commerce when I wasn't doing it, it wasn't naturally for me. And I didn't want to do it. But I still wanted to share content. And I love building apps. I knew a lot of things. So I just say, if I have to share online, it will be about building apps. And so that's why I started. And I decided to share everything because I wanted to be transparent, because I wanted people to see like the struggles, the the numbers, and how everything was done, to be the guy I wanted to meet when I started. Um but actually it helped me. So I started two years ago, a bit more than two years ago. And even if I thought that I wasn't going to get some customers and it wasn't going to help my business, it did. Because first of all, I have some good relationship with Shopify. It helps always. Second thing is It's easy for me today to get some partnerships. So we grow a lot through partnerships. We do partnerships with other Shopify apps. And today. When I contact some Shopify apps and ask them, hey, do you want to make a partnership? Sometimes they will say, Oh, I know you from Twitter. And when people know you from Twitter or from somewhere else, it's easier to get a partnership with them. So this is the other reason. It's easier to get the partnerships. And I did get some users from Twitter and from LinkedIn just because Even if I'm talking about building apps, Shopify apps, I'm still talking about the Shopify cost system. So I still attract a few merchants. And so I've had some people installing my app that way. And then the The the the other reason is that uh this is something that people can't take from me. I mean I can always have my uh account banned or or something uh or be or be in act or I don't know but When you're building your audience and building your personal brand, this is something that people can't really take from you and it will always help you. Whenever if for example if I sell my Shopify apps and I want to build something else, then I would still have that Ogence that I can use to build some. And so I think it can help you. And this is why I would recommend everyone to start building an audience and start posting online. And the only thing you have to do is talk about the things you're currently doing.
Kurt Elster
I love this advice. This is, you know, the the data that says I should do this. It's I'm building a personal brand. I'm building an audience. Most importantly, I am building goodwill with people, right? Just being out there and being helpful will help you in the long run. Um That's great. I love it. Yeah, this is exactly that. Yeah. So and this is inspiring. You're very successful. I'm impressed. I want to know Where can I learn more about you? How can I connect with you? What you know what community should I be joining? Where are you on social media? Is it laid on me?
Mat De Sousa
Yeah, so I'm pretty much everywhere. So you can go on X, which is Twitter, you can go on X, you tap D-S-M-A-T-I-E, you can find my content online. This is where I'm the most active. Then you can go on LinkedIn, Mad Desusausa. You can uh subscribe to my newsletter where I share every Tuesday what I'm doing so you get the recap and and everything about the week that I've that I did I do have a Facebook group that you can join, the Shopify App Founders, where you can find other Shopify App Funders building Shopify apps. Um and I just yeah and I just started recently um a YouTube channel. So same thing, Matt D'Souza, a YouTube channel where I will start posting long like videos about how I'm building the business something so that I can share a lot.
Kurt Elster
This is wonderful. In the The show notes, I will I'll include uh your Twitter or X, LinkedIn, your newsletter, Facebook group, YouTube, and of course, links to your two apps. Um this has this has been super helpful. I'm feeling I'm feeling inspired. Matt, Vanta Souza, thank you so much.
Mat De Sousa
Yeah, thank you for having me.
Kurt Elster
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